Dream Matchups


Foreman vs. Holmes

Liston vs. Marciano

Johnson vs. Frazier

Dempsey vs. Louis

Tyson vs. Tunney

Ali vs. Bowe

Wladimir Klitschko vs. Lennox Lewis

Evander Holyfield vs. Vitali Klitschko

Quarterfinals: George Foreman vs. Vitali Klitschko

Quarterfinals: Sonny Liston vs. Mike Tyson

Quarterfinals: Muhammed Ali vs. Joe Louis

Quarterfinals: Joe Frazier vs. Lennox Lewis

Semifinals: George Foreman vs. Sonny Liston

Semifinals: Muhammed Ali vs. Lennox Lewis

Third Place Fight between Lennox Lewis and George Foreman

Fifth Place Semi-Finals Fight between Joe Louis and Joe Frazier

Fifth Place Semi-Finals Fight between Mike Tyson and Vitali Klitschko

Fifth Place Finals between Vitali Klitschko and Joe Louis

Seventh Place Finals between Mike Tyson and Joe Frazier

The Finals Championship: Sonny Liston vs. Muhammed Ali

Our Conclusions

Consolation Fights

Post Your Comments



George Foreman vs. Larry Holmes

foreman-holmes

Foreman            Holmes

holmes 2

Shavers Vs Holmes 2!
Earnie Shavers(The hardest hitter in heavyweight history!) Fights one of the greatest fighters in Heavyweight history, Larry Holmes!

holmes 1

Larry Holmes vs Ken Norton - Round 15

fight2

Foreman vs. Lyle
Hamed/Kelley on the highest level of the scale! Take one monstrous puncher with no defense,
and one fair-to-middling boxer with decent accuracy, and you have a battle worth being commented on by Cosell.

fight 1

George Foreman vs. Jimmy Young PART 5

fight3

George Foreman vs Ken Norton 26-03-1974 COMPLETE


Fighters

Ht.

Wt.

Record

Prime

Record in Prime

Best Fight

Holmes

6’3”

212

69-6-0

1978-83

19-0-0 (12)

1978 Norton 15-D

Foreman

6’3”

225

76-5-0

1973-77

8-2-0 (8)

1973 Frazier 2-KO

Larry Holmes, born in Cuthbert, Georgia. He defeated Ken Norton for the W.B.C. heavyweight title in 1978, retained it 16 times, gave it up in 1984, was named I.B.F. champion that year, and held the title until 1985, when he finally lost to Michael Spinks. He gained universal recognition with his victory over Muhammad Ali in 1980 and his victory over future W.B.A. champion, Michael Weaver. Holmes failed to meet the top heavyweights of his time. (Gerry Coetzee, Michael Dokes, Greg Page, Pinklon Thomas and Jimmy Young): After a brief retirement he returned to fight Mike Tyson in 1988 for the title, but was defeated in a fourth round knockout. He retired after winning 48 of his 51 contests, then launched a comeback in 1991, but lost his title challenge to Evander Holyfield in 1992 when he was well into his forties.

George Foreman, born in Marshall, Texas. Reared in the black ghetto of Houston, he learned to box in the Job Corps. In the Mexico City Olympic Games in 1968 he won the Gold Medal. He captured the heavyweight title in 1973, knocking out Joe Frazier in the second round. He lost the title the next year to Muhammad Ali and retired for the first time in 1977. He returned to the ring in 1991 and lost in his title bid against Evander Holyfield. He regained the title in 1994, at the age of 45 with his KO of champion, Michael Moorer.

Fight Advantages:
Hand speed- Holmes, Boxing Ability- Holmes, KO Power- Foreman, Chin- Foreman, Size- Foreman, Defense- Holmes, Endurance- Holmes, Adaptability- Holmes, Foot Speed- Holmes, Strength- Foreman, Jab- Holmes, Cuts- No advantage, Reach-Foreman 82-80:
Total: Holmes 7-5-1

Special Notes About the Fight:
Foreman lost in his prime to two crafty boxers similar to Holmes, Jimmy Young and Muhammad Ali. Holmes was not as good defensively as Young and Ali but he did have a better jab and was better offensively. Foreman’s only career knockout came at the hands of Ali, and Young put him down in the 12th round in 1977. Ron Lyle also decked Foreman in their 1975 war. Holmes could be hit, he was floored by Renaldo Snipes, Earnie Shavers and Mike Weaver during his prime and none of the power punchers could hit like Foreman. Holmes only career knockout loss was against Tyson when he was close to forty years old. A key factor in any fight is the reach advantage, Foreman has a two inch advantage over Holmes.

Common Opponents:
Ken Norton: Foreman destroyed Norton in two rounds in 1974, while Holmes won a close decision over Kenny in 1978.
Muhammad Ali: Foreman lost to Ali(8-KO) in 1974 while Holmes knocked out an over the hill Ali(11-KO) in 1980.
Gerry Cooney: At the age of 41 Foreman disposed of Cooney in two rounds 1990, while Holmes defeated Cooney in 1982 in a 13-KO.
Evander Holyfield: Both Foreman and Holmes were well past their primes when they faced Holyfield and both lost in 12 rounds by decision.

Keys to the Fight:
Would Holmes be elusive enough to avoid Foreman early. I think the difference in the fight would be Holmes jab and hand speed.

Results:
Both fighters were true champions that fought with unbelievable heart. Holmes should be able to move and avoid Foreman early in the fight and force Foremen to tire in the later rounds. Holmes had just the style to give Foreman fits. If Foreman imposes his will on Holmes early in the fight it will be over quick. The question and deciding factor would be if Holmes is smart enough to avoid Big George in the early going. I see Foreman fading in the later rounds losing by decision.

Counter Point:
Foreman competed in a much more competitive era than Holmes. Foreman defeated one of the all-time greats in Joe Frazier and lost to Ali, who was probably the greatest heavyweights of all-time. Holmes on the other hand was hurt during his best years by Norton, Weaver, and Shavers. Foreman at his peak was bigger, stronger, and more aggressive and hit harder than any of these fighters. Holmes was on the canvas four times during his career while Foreman was down three times against Ali, Jimmy Young and Ron Lyle.

What the Experts Say:
Most experts believe that Foreman would come out fast and furious as usual and might even score an early knockdown. Holmes should survive the early attack and take control in the middle rounds with his jab and hand speed and legs. Holmes in a 12 round decision.(of seventeen experts, Foreman led 10-7)

Moontan Rating:
{Looks at fighters' longevity, competition and ability}
Holmes 129.6, Foreman 136.6

by Jim Carney
(Notice these fights are at 15 rounds. Shortening them would help George when
they were younger and Larry when they were older)

 This is a tough one, whether they were in their prime or when they were older.
Whichever one I back I feel uncomfortable with.  
 
 Both in their primes
 Foreman tears into Holmes over the first seven or eight rounds, flooring him
twice and staggering him several times. Holmes had trouble with the assaults of
Ken Norton, Mike Weaver, Gerry Cooney and Ernie Shavers. Even Renaldo Snipes
knocked him down. Some of these guys might hit as hard as George and some might
even approach Foreman in sheer strength. But none possess the combination of
punch, strength, ferocity and durability that Foreman brings to the table.
Holmes is strong and durable - like Muhammad Ali - unusually so for a boxer
type. He isn’t defensively as good as Ali and may not have quite as great a chin.
But he is more constantly active and does not dance around for its own sake like
Ali. This last point could have significant one for Larry against Ali, but not
against Foreman.

 Big George runs out of gas in the seventh or eighth round. Holmes’ early
trouble keeps it close for the next four. But then the Easton Assassin takes
over with a vengeance, spearing the exhausted Foreman and maybe even scoring a
knockdown, but George scores a close decision.

 Both late in their careers
 Also very close. George has improved in skill and stamina but is now slow
beyond beyond. Larry is slower too. Foreman is still a potent puncher but though
his power is basically strength-based, a small loss in what hand speed he had
appears to have slightly diminished his punch, except perhaps against a
relatively stationary target.

 Both men still have their durability and Holmes is also probably smarter than
ever. Unlike the first fight, Larry’s speed advantage gets him to an early lead
as George is really in glue for eight or nine rounds – though the fight is still
close as George gets the harder shots in. Larry then goes flat-footed and things
are about even over the last half, except George staggers Larry a number of
times, nearly flooring him once. Again close, but his time it’s Larry who holds
onto the early lead and wins.

 (Note: This fight should have been the Ali-Frazier rivalry of the late ‘70s and
early 80s. But George’s early retirement prevented that from happening.)

by Frank Lotierzo   EAST SIDE BOXING

Obviously this is very subjective. Most times when great fighters face each other and it's a close call, styles usually play a big role in who wins. I happen to place great importance on the actual head-to-head confrontation. When I evaluate fighters in trying to decide who would win, I take them from what I thought was their very best and try to picture how a fight between them would turn out. Picking the winner in a prime Foreman vs prime Holmes match-up basically comes down to, whether Holmes can make it to the 7th round. If Holmes can extend Foreman to the 7th round and beyond his chances for victory improve significantly because of his better boxing skills and stamina. The very best Foreman was the version we saw in between his fights with Frazier and Ali. The Foreman who fought after Ali during the '70s was a different fighter. After the Ali fight he fought more measured, trying not to go out like a sprinter, he worried about his endurance, thus rendering himself less effective. The Foreman pre-Ali never would have lost to Jimmy Young, he would have tore after Young like he did Ali (some look at the Young fight as to why Holmes would do well with Foreman). The difference is that Young couldn't have endured the same assault as Ali, and I question whether Holmes would've been capable either. The best Holmes was the one who fought between Norton and Ali. Seeing how Norton, Weaver, and Shavers were able to get to Holmes and hurt him, leads me to believe the pre-Ali Foreman, who was bigger, stronger, more aggressive and a much better puncher, would have been able to get to Holmes and hurt him enough to corner him and stop him inside of four or five rounds.

WHAT SHOULD BE A BIGGER FACTOR

This is an individual preference, it isn't an exact science. I just don't think the numbers tell the whole story in every instance. Rocky Marciano retired undefeated, so if Foreman or Holmes fought the fighters that Marciano fought, could they have gone undefeated? Sonny Liston only made one successful title defense, Ezzard Charles made eight, and most historians rank Liston over Charles. How about other sports? Jerome Bettis has rushed for over three thousand more yards than Earl Campbell. Who would you rank higher? From my perspective, when I see a ranking of all-time athletes, regardless of the sport, I believe that No. 1 should be better than No. 2, and 2 should be better than No. 3. If someone ranks Joe Louis above Muhammad Ali, I think it should be because they feel he would've beat Ali had they met on their best night, not because he was champ longer or made more title defenses. Basically, when you must rate one fighter over another, what do you choose from, who had the more accomplished career or who wins if they fought?

Experts Predicted Outcome:  Foreman the Winner 2-1

Moontan            Holmes by Decision      

Carney                 Foreman by Decision

Lotierzo               Foreman by knockout

Foreman Advances to the next round

You Decide Who Wins: Foreman or Holmes


Sonny Liston vs. Rocky Marciano


Rocky Marciano Video Tribute
This is a tribute to one of the greatest heavyweight champions of all time!

Sonny Liston The Big, Bad Bear
Sonny Liston Tribute video. Background music is Jimmy Forrest's "Night Train" which was Liston's favorite song and he trained to it religiously.

The Hardest Hitting Heavyweights Part 2
A brief analysis of Rocky Marciano, Sonny Liston and Joe Frazier.

Fighters

Ht.

Wt.

Record

Prime

Record in Prime

Best Fight

Marciano

5’10”

188

49-0-0

1950-56

23-0-0 (20)

1952 Walcott 13-KO

Liston

6’1”

218

50-4-0

1958-63

21-0-0 (19)

1960 C.Williams 2-KO

Rocky Marciano was born in 1923 in Brockton, Mass. He won the heavyweight title in a 13-KO over Jersey Joe Walcott in 1952. He is the only undefeated Heavyweight  champion in history. Often criticized for the competition that he faced during his career because Joe Louis, Ezzard Charles, Archie Moore and Walcott were all at the tail end of their careers. He announced his retirement on April 27, 1956. On August 31st, 1969--the eve of his 46th birthday - Marciano was killed in an airplane crash.

Sonny Liston believed his birth date was 1932, but he was never sure and that led to speculation that he was actually a few years older. He was the 24th of 25 children and was raised outside Forrest City, Arkansas. Liston was one of the most imposing figures to ever lace on boxing gloves. He was arrested 19 times and served separate stretches in prison for armed robbery and assaulting a police officer. He won the title in 1962 with a first round knockout of Floyd Patterson and lost the title to Muhammad Ali in 1964. Liston was not licensed in the state of New York because of his connections with organized crime. His mysterious death in 1970 remains unsolved. 
.
Fight Advantages:
Hand speed- No Advantage, Boxing Ability- Liston, KO Power- No Advantage, Chin- No Advantage, Size- Liston, Defense- No Advantage, Endurance- Marciano, Adaptability- Liston, Foot Speed- No Advantage, Strength- Liston, Jab- Liston, Cuts- Liston:
Total: Liston 6-1-5

Special Notes About the Fight:
Marciano went to the canvas against two light punching heavyweights, Jersey Joe Walcott and Archie Moore. One of his closest battles was against Walcott in 1952 when he was behind on all three judges score cards when he won by knockout in the 13th round. His other close calls were a split decision over Roland LaStarza and Ezzard Charles. Both of these men weighed less than 190 pounds and all three were great boxers. The only fighter Marciano faced with a similar style to Liston was an over the hill Joe Louis, who he disposed of in eight rounds.
Liston was very dominating destroying all contenders from 1959 till he gained the title in 1962. Only one fighter went the distance and that was Eddie Machen in 1960. Machen was a classic boxer who weighed 196 and hit and ran most of the evening.
Very few fighters stood a chance exchanging blows with Liston. Liston was only down twice in his career, his questionable first round lost to Ali in 1965 and at the age of 38 his knockout loss to Leotis Martin.

Common Opponents:
None.

Keys to the Fight:
Marciano would be giving up about 30 pounds in weight and a lot more in reach. Liston had an 84 inch reach compared to Marciano’s 68. That is a difference of 16 inches in reach alone. Liston’s long jab would be the key to the fight. Marciano was cut in many of his fights and Liston would be able to fight Rocky at long range. Liston did not have many long fights so if the fight went into the late rounds Marciano's endurance would be a factor. Liston loved fighters who attacked him as Patterson did in their two fights. Most fighters who had success against Liston ran.

Results:
Marciano would come out early trying to take the fight to Liston much like Patterson did trying to get inside Liston’s jab. But unlike Patterson, Rocky is a much harder target to find. Marciano is extremely low and Liston is missing a lot of his jabs and becomes frustrated. Although Liston is not dominating the fight, he is winning the rounds and Marciano is cut in the middle rounds. Liston wins on a late round TKO or by decision. The fight is much tougher for Liston than many expected.

Counter Point:
In both the Ali fights, Liston's courage and stamina were always called into question by most experts. Of course the second Ali fight you can throw out because it most certainly was not on the level. Marciano on the other hand was one of the most courageous fighters in the history of the ring.

What the Experts Say:
Most experts have a hard time being objective about Marciano because he never lost a fight. Many forget the many cuts that Marciano endured during his career. Many boxing historians focus on Liston two loses to Ali. Experts like Marciano in a late round knockout.(Most experts rank Marciano over Liston 10 to 7)

Moontan Rating:
* {Looks at fighters' longevity, competition and ability}
Liston 135.1  Marciano 113.8

Liston-Marciano Comparison

by Jim Carney Jr., boxing expert and author who has written numerous articles on boxing and his new book called “Ultimate Tough Guy” on the life and times of James J.Jeffries.

There is not much to choose between these two in hitting power, skill, durability or speed (hand or foot). One assumes the bigger Liston has the edge in strength, but this is far from certain since Marciano worked hard to develop and maintain that. Definite points in Liston's favor are that Rocky was not used to fighting top-rate heavies of Liston's style, let alone a great like Sonny. Rocky did beat a Joe Louis of close to Liston's size, but that Joe - though still good - was not great when he fought Marciano. Rocky beat an excellent crop of heavyweights (Walcott, LaSarza, Charles, Moore, Mathews, etc) but they were all stylish and about his own size.

On the other hand, some of these men were great or near-great fighters and Marciano always overcame them thorough many tough situations. The one time Liston ran into a man his own level (the then Cassius Clay) he unceremoniously quit in his corner. It is almost unimaginable to think of Rocky quitting in his corner. One time, Ezzard Charles almost ripped the Rock's nose off his face yet Marciano stopped him in the next round. He was also almost blinded by liniment in the first Walcott fight and never thought of giving up. Back in Liston's favor, he did perhaps fight more people of the slugging style than Rocky. Included here is at least one man, Cleveland Williams, whose punching power (though not total ability) was at the Liston-Marciano level. Rocky fought some good hitters but probably no one who was at his, Liston's or Williams level in this department.

In terms of the comparable styles each man experienced, I don't recall Sonny ever fighting a powerful, crouching fighter of the Marciano type. There was stylistic similarity between Liston and the Louis of 1951, though that Louis was probably far from Liston's equal. Liston's height advantage (2 or three inches) and weight advantage (25-30 pounds) were substantial but not overwhelming. But Sonny's 16-inch reach advantage may have been too much of an advantage in a key area. He also sometimes cut opponents with his long, ultra-deadly jab.

Conclusion: If Rocky had more experience fighting bigger heavyweights, I would pick him to pull this one off by decision or even late-round kayo on grit and conditioning. Since this is not the case, I give Liston the edge. A kayo is not impossible but more likely, Liston scores two knockdowns and wins by decision or late-round stoppage.

 One more thing to add, Liston could be rattled by movers and awkward fighters, such as Bert Whitehurst, Marty Marshall, Eddie Machen and Ali. Sonny never wanted to fight Ernie Terrell, whose style drove him crazy in the gym. But slugger to slugger, Sonny walked through people like Mike DeJohn and Cleveland Williams, thought they rattled him with good shots. Williams had even broken his nose earlier. I don' think he would have lacked heart in a macho match with Rocky.

You Decide Who Wins: Marciano or Liston


Jack Johnson vs. Joe Frazier

 

Jack Johnson            Joe Frazier

 

Jack Johnson 6’1”, 200 vs. Joe Frazier 5’11 ½”, 205

        1908-1915                            1970-1973

Fight Advantages: Hand Speed-No Advantage, Boxing Ability-Johnson, KO Power-Frazier, Chin-No  Advantage, Size-No Advantage, Defense-Johnson, Endurance-Frazier, Adaptability- Johnson, Foot Speed- Johnson, Strength-No Advantage, Jab-Johnson, Cuts-No Advantage, Reach-No Advantage, Body Punches: Results: 5-3-6 Jack Johnson

 

By: Moontan {Judge}  HeavyweightAction.com Boxing Expert:

Two of the all-time great’s going against one another in a classic matchup of boxer vs. slugger. I see a lot of similarities between this fight and Ali vs. Frazier.  Johnson was not as big or fast as Ali but probably was a better defensive fighter. Frazier in his prime was relentless bobbing and weaving. George Chuvalo recently called him the best defensive fighter he ever faced. Johnson was very strong and was a totally defensive fighter with very quick hands and feet. One of the biggest problems was that Johnson never faced anybody was big and fast with the stamina of Frazier. He always outweighed his opponent. Langford was only 5’8”, Burns was 5’7” and they were two of the best heavyweights of the period. Johnson did face Al Kaufman, Jess Willard and Frank Moran but they were slow in comparison to modern heavyweights. Frazier did have trouble with Foreman’s holding and grabbing techniques which were very similar to Johnson in his heyday. Of course Foreman was much bigger and stronger than Johnson with 25 more pounds of strength. I see the fight unfolding with Johnson holding and wrestling with Frazier trying to get in his lighting jab and several upper cuts. Frazier was probably the greatest body punch of all-time and he would be working on Johnson’s mid-section. Rounds 10 through 15 would be dominated by Frazier as Johnson try’s to stay upright. I see Frazier winning by knockout late in the fight much in the same fashion as the first Ali fight although he failed to KO Ali.

Summary: Frazier had a very active career in which he fought during the greatest heavyweight period in boxing history. Foreman, Quarry, Ali, Bonavena, Chuvalo, Jimmy Ellis and many more; Frazier never had that much trouble with boxers, Foreman and Bonavena caused him the most trouble. Johnson never fought that much after he gained the title and his defenses were against the likes of Philadelphia Jack O’Brien(162), Tony Ross(214), Al Kaufman(191), Stanley Ketchell(170), Jim Flynn(193) and Frank Moran(203). I just don’t see Johnson being able to fight a well-conditioned fighter putting constant pressure on you from the opening round.

 

By: Jim Carney Jr. {Judge}  Author and Boxing Expert:

Despite Johnson’s defensive skills, Frazier is the pick here. The cautious Johnson was frequently held even and occasionally defeated for concentrating so much on defense that he didn’t throw enough punches to win. He’d have to really alter his style and be at his best to defeat “Smokin’ Joe,” who threw punches constantly. Jack would probably be at his best for this one and probably would win the first round, which Joe usually lost anyway. But after that, Joe’s volume punching would carry the day, in my opinion.

Johnson might be able to tie Joe up much of the time and he might have a slight edge in upper body strength. But Joe’s sturdier legs would push him back. Jack might or might not go the distance. He had great resistance to body punches, which Joe specialized in, but his chin might have been vulnerable to Joe’s feared left hook.

There was a time when I thought Johnson was highly overrated due to the number of lesser fighters that he failed to decisively defeat. But after extensively researching his career for “”Ultimate Tough Guy,” my biography on Jim Jeffries, I’ve altered my opinion. Rather than overrated, I find Johnson difficult to rate. His surprising number of unimpressive performances is balanced off by the fact that, unlike the other old-time greats, he retains almost universal respect even among modern authorities. But assigning him and Joe to roughly the same class, Frazier has the edge in styles.

Frazier was originally a poor defensive fighter but later developed a defense that George Chuvalo, who fought top defensive fighters like Muhammad Ali, Zora Folley and Jimmy Ellis, surprisingly called the best he ever faced. But Joe’s defensive skills seemed to evaporate when he was in trouble. Except in his right uppercut – which would have given Joe pause – Jack was usually not quite able to translate his strength, speed and extraordinary sense of balance into power.

 

By Simon Harrison,  shaddoboxing.com  Heavyweight tournament

The only other man other than Ali, who could beat Frazier on the back foot is Jack Johnson. Frazier would give it his all, but would be to one dimensional, and lack the defensive qualities to avoid Johnson’s sharp punches. Frazier would undoubtedly have his moments, but eventually Johnson’s sharp right handers would bash up Frazier’s face bad. Johnson by unanimous decision.

 

Experts Predicted Outcome:  Frazier the Winner 2-1

Moontan-           Frazier 13-KO    

Carney                  Frazier knockout

Harrison              Johnson by decision

 

“Smokin Joe” advances to the next round.

 

 

You decide who wins: Johnson vs. Frazier

Vote now. Results appear after you vote.

 


Jack Dempsey  vs. Joe Louis

Jack Dempsey          Joe Louis

Jack Dempsey  6’1”, 189   vs.  Joe Louis  6’1 ½”, 190


Fight Advantages:
Hand Speed-Louis, Boxing Ability-Louis, KO Power-No Advantage, Chin-Dempsey, Size-No Advantage, Defense, No Advantage, Endurance-No Advantage, Adaptability-No Advantage, Food Speed-Dempsey, Strength-No Advantage, Jab- Louis, Cuts-No Advantage, Reach-No Advantage(77” to 76 ½”)
Total 3-2-8 in favor of Joe Louis

By: Moontan {Judge}  HeavyweightAction.com Boxinng Expert:
Two of the greatest heavyweight champions of all time and a dream matchup. Before I talk about the outcome of the fight I must mention that Dempsey was a real fast starter and Louis was known as a slow starter for most of his career. This could really have a big effect on the outcome of the fight. Having said that, I see several advantages for Louis in this fight: First he has edge in hand speed and has the superior jab and the more accurate puncher. I see Dempsey big advantages as his ability to take a punch and the bobbing and weaving style which made him difficult to hit. A lot of people say that Louis would have boxed Dempsey ears off because that is what Tunney did in their two fights and Dempsey had a lot of trouble with Tommy Gibbons in their title fight. But Louis did not have the foot speed or the movement that those fighters had so he would have been a more stationary target; Although Louis showed a great deal of foot speed in the Max Baer fight. The thing that I have noticed in Dempsey early in his career as opposed to his later fights against Sharkey and Tunney was his head movement and quickness defensively. He was very hard to hit early in his career. As for Louis he hit the canvas several times during his career.
I see Dempsey really coming out aggressive in the fight and taking the fight to Louis early. Louis is defensive and cautious realizing the power of Dempsey. I see Louis going down early in the fight but that was not that unusual for Louis because he had great recovery powers. As the fight wares on Louis starts taking control of the fight with his jab and continues to pill up points winning a close 15 round decision.  I see Dempsey hitting the canvas late in the fight but he had a tremendous chin.
Summary:
Looking back on the two great fighters careers there  is no comparison in their careers. Louis was much more active and his body of work is much more impressive than Dempsey. Yes, Dempsey was more popular but Louis fought such a much wider variety of opponents. Dempsey toughest opponents were Willard, Firpo, Jack Sharkey and Gene Tunney. Louis faced almost every top contender throughout the 1930s and 1940s: Schmeling, Jack Sharkey, Max Baer, Braddock and Billy Conn.  Louis had trouble with fighters who boxed him and avoided his power taking advantage of his lack of foot speed. Dempsey would have come straight at him which would have played right into “The Brown Bombers” hands.

By: Monte D. Cox  {Judge}  Website Boxing Expert:
The outcome of this fight would likely come down to “who gets there first with the most.” Louis had a pair of the fastest hands in heavyweight history and the edge in hand speed goes to Louis and punching accuracy goes to Joe by a wide margin. Dempsey often coming in with his hands down low would be an inviting target for Louis quick and accurate punches. The Brown Bomber would be the one to land first with the heavy guns. As hard as Louis hit this would be the deciding factor, particularly since Louis really did throw perfect straight textbook punches. Louis would use just enough strong left jabs to pepper Dempsey and keep him at bay. For a fight where he respected his opponent’s ability, as in the second Schmeling fight, Louis did not drop his left hand one time and fought a perfect fight keeping his hands high, his elbows in and his chin down, he also used head movement to avoid wild shots. As Dempsey bored in Louis would slide to the side and catch Dempsey with his short, accurate and powerful counterpunches as he did in the second Godoy fight. The Louis of this fight knew how to create punching room and get the proper angles on a crouching, weaving fighter. Louis would survive the first round with superior boxing skills just as Tommy Gibbons had. Louis would then take Dempsey apart and eventually knock him out around the 8th round, a few rounds longer perhaps than that envisioned by Dempsey’s trainer Teddy Hayes. The final blow would be just as classic and picturesque as Louis knockout over James Braddock.

For more check out Cox’s Corner:
http://coxscorner.tripod.com/dempsey_louis.html

By: Jim Carney Jr. {Judge}  Author and Boxing Expert:
Dempsey has the stylistic edge here. He’s probably the best of all heavyweights in the first round and on a par with George Foreman for the honor of best three-round heavyweight. Louis was somewhat of a slow starter and also had trouble with crouchers. Dempsey was a lightning-fast fighter who employed not only a crouch but a bob and weave. I pick Dempsey to batter Louis enough in these rounds to make his victory in the first half of the fight probable.

If, however, Louis is still in solid shape after the first three rounds, my prediction changes. Dempsey didn’t suddenly collapse totally in eight or so rounds  (as Foreman did if he failed to finish an opponent). Jack would generally seriously slow down and come back, though with far less fury than in the earlier rounds, in the second half of the fight.
But with the initial fury having subsided, Louis – if still intact – would probably hold him off with the jab and win on experience  (Joe fought a substantially wider variety of tough heavyweights) and stamina. Many favor Dempsey as having a better chin and possessing a more or less equal punch. But a real study of their careers indicates little difference in durability despite the usually appreciated Louis being underrated in this category.

How I became a boxing fan. At around the age 10, I was reading the wrestling sections of Boxing Illustrated/Wrestling Review and Ring magazine and soon began reading the boxing articles also. This was the beginning of my passion for boxing which has continued unabated since then.


Experts Predicted Outcome:  Louis winner by a count of 2-0-1
Moontan              Louis 15-D
Cox                       Louis   8-KO
Carney                 Dempsey Early, Louis Late

You decide who wins: Dempsey vs. Louis

Click here to vote. Results will show up after you vote.


Mike Tyson  vs.  Gene Tunney

Mike Tyson       Gene Tunney

Mike Tyson         vs.         Gene Tunney
 1988-1990                         1926-1928
  5’11”, 220                            6’1”, 189

Fight Advantages:
Hand Speed-Tyson, Boxing Ability-Tunney, KO Power- Tyson, Chin- No Advantage, Size-Tyson, Defense-Tunney, Endurance-No Advantage, Adaptability-Tunney, Foot Speed- Tunney, Strength- Tyson, Jab- Tunney, Cuts-No Advantage, Reach-Tunney, Body Punches- Tyson:
Total: Tunney 6-5-3

By: Moontan(Judge) HeavyweightAction.com Boxing Expert:

Classic matchup of boxer vs. slugger.  Tunney was one of the greatest boxers of all time who only lost one fight during his entire career. He only hit the canvas once in his career and that was the famous long count against Dempsey. He possessed great foot movement and defensive skills. Against Tyson he would be giving up 30 pounds and would have a hard time holding the young Tyson back. Mike Tyson in the 1980s was much different than the fighter the emerged under Don King. In the early years under Rooney he was in great condition with constant head movement and was never stationary. He was a much better fighter during this stretch from 1987 to 1990 when he lost the title to Buster Douglas. Even Douglas had great size at 6’4”, 230 to hold off the advancing Tyson. Tunney would not have that advantage. The only fighters that really gave Tyson trouble were big heavyweights that were tall enough to hold him off with their size. As good as Tunney was I don’t see him lasting more than five rounds against a young Tyson. Tyson was too fast and quick and strong to be denied against Tunney.
Summary:
Looking back on their careers Tyson was very active against large heavyweights and faced everybody in the division on his move toward the championship. Tunney fought very few heavyweights during his career with the vast majority of his fights being against Light Heavyweights weighing under 175 pounds. This fight would just be a mismatch. That does not diminish the fact that Tunney may have been the best fighter of his generation but also better than all the heavyweights that preceded him to the title.

By: Jim Carney Jr. (Judge) Author and Boxing Expert:

This comes down to an advantage in style vs. an edge in character. Except for Jack Dempsey who – especially when Tunney met him – was less lethal after the first three rounds, Tunney never met a man with Tyson’s punch. He seldom fought fighters as strong or heavy as Iron Mike. Tunney may have an edge in foot speed but Tyson was quick enough in that area to get to him and may well have matched Gene in hand quickness. Tunney did have more skill than definitely most, if not all, of Mike’s foes, except perhaps Larry Holmes (and Larry was over-the-hill and caked with rust when Iron Mike stopped him). But Tyson at his best was no slouch in this area either.

Tyson’s weakness – especially after the loss of Cus D’Amato and Jimmy Jacobs but probably always – was his heart (not by the standards of the average man but compared to heavyweight champions). In the opinion of this writer and many others, he showed a lack of grit against Buster Douglas, Evander Holyfield, Lennox Lewis, Danny Williams and Kevin McBride. Tunney, By contrast, Tunney was a man’s man. He took a horrible beating against Harry Greb and came back to whip Harry several times. He came off the floor after taking 14 straight shots from the murderous Dempsey. That was the only time he was ever floored. Tyson, too had a good chin.

As far as the proposed fight goes, Iron Mike dominates much of the contest. Tunney is a strong man but the heavily muscled, heavier and harder-hitting Tyson pushes him back, perhaps flooring him and piling up a lead. Tunney hangs in there and does better and better as the fight goes on and Mike becomes discouraged. But Gene does not have the power to kayo him or discourage him enough to totally throw in the towel. Things are going Tunney’s way in the last part of the fight, but Tyson’s style wins a competitive but definite decision. If Tunney had a better punch, I’d pick him to stop Tyson in the late rounds. But we can’t base picks on ifs.

Experts Predicted Outcome:  Tyson the Winner 2-0
Moontan-          Tyson within 5 rounds
Carney-                                Tyson 15-D

You decide who wins: Tyson or Tunney!

Click here to vote. Results will show up after you vote.


Ali vs. Bowe

Muhammed Ali   Riddick Bowe

Muhammad Ali    vs.     Riddick Bowe
 1964-67,74-78,78-79     1992-1993

Fight Advantages:
Hand Speed-Ali, Boxing Ability-Ali, KO Power-Bowe, Chin-No Advantage, Size-No Advantage, Defense-Ali, Endurance-Ali, Adaptability-Ali, Foot Speed-Ali, Strength-Bowe, Jab-Ali, Cuts-No Advantage, Reach-No Advantage(81” to 80” in favor of Bowe), Body Attack-Bowe:
Total 7-3-4 in favor of Muhammad Ali

By Simon Harrison of Saddo Boxing Site:
Ali would have real trouble with the gifted Bowe. Bowe would have the edge in power and reach, and Ali would have had to use every edge he had in speed and ring generalship to win this one. After slipping behind early, Ali finally gets on top, as Bowe tires. Bowe’s excellent chin, stops him from being KO’d late, as Ali ups the pace and wins a unanimous decision.
saddoboxing.com/boxing-article/heavyweight-boxing-tournament

By Jim Carney
Riddick Bowe may or may not now be considered among the heavyweight greats, but I believe he will ultimately be considered as one of the greats. It’s hard to gauge his chances against Muhammad Ali, who was possibly the greatest of all-time. Bowe would probably give a good account of himself, but Ali is definitely the pick.

Though Bowe did not prove his courage as many times as Ali did, his three bouts with Evander Holyfield did show an abundance of heart and grit. Ali had difficulty with Joe Bugner, who was similar in size and potential talent to Bowe, but never achieved that potential (which Bowe did) and probably couldn’t hit as hard. Iron-jawed Holyfield who fought other potent hitters like Mike Tyson, Ray Mercer and Lennox Lewis, named Bowe as the hardest hitter he ever faced. But Ali, who fought even more big hitters that Bowe, had one of the best chins in boxing history and would probably survive Bowe’s punches as he did those of Sonny Liston, George Foreman, Earnie Shavers, Joe Frazier, Ron Lyle, Oscar Bonavena, Floyd Patterson and many other excellent to great hitters. He had some trouble when he faced opponents like Bugner and Ernie Terrell, who were even taller than he, but in the end their height didn’t bother him all that much. Ali fought almost every size, shape and style of boxer but Bowe never faced a style remotely like Ali’s.

Ali wins by unanimous decision. Most of the rounds are competitive throughout the fight, but Ali wins most of them.

By: Moontan (Judge) HeavyweightAction.com Boxing Expert:
Of all the heavyweight title holders Bowe is given the least respect. Bowe was 6’5” and weighed 235 in his prime, had a reach of 81”, was big and fast, could punch and take a punch with the best of them.  His record was 43-1 with the three fights against Holyfield being his only legitimate claim to greatness. He won two out of three fights against Holyfield and the last one started his decline in the ring. Against Andrew Golota he was not the same fighter who held the title. Although he won both fights on disqualifications he was beaten soundly in both fights. Bowe’s prime years were very short and therefore he is not viewed as one of the all-time greats. He also was not well liked by the public. Ali on the other hand was just the opposite with a long career of greatness and was well received by the public.

Summary:
This would be a great fight with Ali using all his speed of foot and hand to stay away from the dangerous Bowe. Bowe’s ability to take a punch would be obvious to Ali and he would just move and run the entire fight. Bowe would corner the elusive Ali on numerous occasions making the fight very close. The difference is Ali’s conditioning as he wins most of the late rounds to pull out a 15 round.

Split- decision. Bowe dominates Ali on the inside and is very hard for Ali to hold and push away like he has on so many other occasions in his career. Great fight with both men going the distance. Bowe is exhausted and fades during the late rounds by the fast pace kept by “The Greatest”.

Experts Predicted Outcome:  Ali  the Winner 3-0
Moontan                             Ali  15-D
Harrison                              Ali  15-D
Carney                                  Ali  15-D

Ali advances to the next round.

You decide who wins: Ali or Bowe!

Click here to vote. Results will show up after you vote.


Wladimir Klitschko vs. Lennox Lewis

Wladimir Klitschko     Lennox Lewis

Wladimir Klitschko vs. Lennox Lewis
2009-2012              1998-01, 2001-04
6’6”,245                   6’5”, 245
81”                             84”
By Moontan         
Fight Advantages:
Hand Speed-Klitschko, Boxing Ability-Lewis, KO Power-No Advantage, Chin-No Advantage, Size-No Advantage, Defense-Klitschko, Endurance-No Advantage, Adaptability-Lewis, Foot Speed-No Advantage, Strength-Klitschko, Body Punches-No Advantage, Jab-Klitschko, Cuts-No Advantage, Reach-Lewis:
Total: Klitschko 4-3-7

Common Opponents:
Hasim Rahman
Lewis 5-KO Loss (2001), Lewis 4-KO Win(2001):
Klitschko 7-TKO win(2008), Rahman was well past his prime in this fight and took the fight on short notice.
Ray Mercer
Lewis 10-D win(1996) very close decision
Klitschko 6-TKO(2002) Mercer was well past his prime in this fight.

Top Ten Wins:
Lewis                                                                                    Klitschko
92 Donovan Ruddock(231)           2-KO                      00 Chris Byrd(214)                            12-D
93 Fran Bruno(238)                          7-TKO                    02 McCline(263)                                10-D
95 Tommy Morrison(227)             6-TKO                    06 Chris Byrd(213)                              7-TKO
96 Ray Mercer(238)                      10-D                          06 Calvin Brock(224)                          7-TKO
97 Oliver McCall(237)                      5-TKO                    07 Lamon Brewster(228)                 6-TKO
97 Andrew Golota(244)                 1-KO                      08 Tony Thompson(247)               11-KO
99 Evander Holyfield(217)          12-D                         09 Ruslan Chagaev(224)                                  9-KO
00 Michael Grant(250)                   2-KO                      10 Eddie Chambers(209)               12-KO
00 David Tua(235)                         12-D                          11 Samuel Peter(241)                     10-KO
02 Mike Tyson(234)                         8-KO                      11 David Haye(210)                         12-D

Close Fights or Losses
Lewis                                                                                    Klitschko
98 Shannon Briggs                           5-KO  W                98 Ross Puritty                                  11-TKO L
94 Oliver McCall                                2-KO   L                 03 Corrie Sanders                               2-KO   L
01 Hasim Rahman                            5-KO   L                 04 Lamon Brewster                           5-TKO L
03 Vitali Klitschko                             6-TKO W              05 Samuel Peter                               12-D     W

Moontan Summary:
This is a very difficult fight to pick because both fighters are very similar; both are two of the biggest and strongest fighters to have ever entered the ring. Emanuel Steward, who trained both Lewis and Klitschko did offer some comparisons between the two.

“Wlad has the best footwork and balance of any fighter I ever worked with.”

“Wlad the most accurate, single punch knockout guy I have ever seen, a guy can be completely fine, not hurt, and Wladimir can put his lights out with one shot.”

Since Steward took over training Klitschko he has lost one fight and that was his first one against Brewster. He has been dominated ever since.

Steward: “I said that Lewis was my best heavyweight. Because he did accomplish and do things that Wladimir has not did. He had big fights, he knocked out opponents. Wladimir has more talent, but the one that you have to give the credit, to the people who have actually beaten good fighters. And Lennox beat more good fighters than Wladimir has at this stage, although Wladimir has more talent than Lennox. He has to be more aggressive, if he does that he could be one of the best heavyweights ever.”

July 1, 2011
“Wladimir is the most powerful natural talent I have worked with. In terms of jab, Wladimir is the best and after him I would put Lennox. Lewis was a more versatile fighter but in terms of boxing arsenal, Wladimir is better.” 

March 2012
With the man who knew both fighters the best it gives you a good insight to what would have happened had the two faced each other in their prime. Both had some detours on their trails to greatness. One punch knockout loss by Lewis to Oliver McCall and Hasim Rahman definitely showed that the Brit was susceptible to a big punch which Wladimir carried. On the other hand Klitschko was knocked out on three occasions by Puritty, Sanders and Brewster. Interesting comparison is that Klitschko was not done in by one punch but rather exhaustion and a series of knock downs. Against Peter in their first fight Klitschko got off the canvas three times to win a unanimous decision. Lewis was hurt early in fights against Briggs and Vitali Klitschko and recovered to come back with knockout wins.

I don’t think there is much comparison in the opponents of the two fighters, Lewis’s list of victories is much more impressive than Klitschko’s. I see the fight between the two of them being fought very cautious from long range with Klitschko’s jab winning the early rounds. Lewis was a master boxer but fighting from long distance would be to Wladimi’sr advantage. In the later rounds Lewis would become more aggressive trying to push the pace faster and get into exchanges with Wladimir. I see Klitschko going down during the fight but recovering and continuing to keep Lewis at bay much like the Peter fight. I see Waldimir winning the decision over 12 rounds.

Reason for my Pick: This was the hardest fight to pick so far in the Dream Matchups because of these two big time punchers. I like Klitschko’s jab, foot speed, strength inside to hold Lewis off, defense and last but not least his hand speed. Klitschko from 2006 to 2012 was so dominate you could count the rounds he lost on one hand. Yes, he was nowhere near as flashy  as Lewis but he was more dominating.

East Side Boxing Forum:  48 to 11 in favor of Lennox Lewis
Boxing Scene Forum: 53 to 11 in favor of Lennox Lewis
Yahoo! Answers Forum: 7 to 0 in favor of Lennox Lewis

By Jim Carney

On the surface not much to choose from here. The fighters are well-matched in size, strength, speed and skill and have similarly vulnerable chins. Lennox has the edge with this writer for two reasons. One is that he has fought and beaten more tough opponents and a bigger variety of opponents in general.  He has scored victories over some very dangerous men, such as Evander Holyfield and Vladimir’s own formidable brother Vitali. The edge in  experience may contribute to the other point in Lennox’s favor his ability to handle difficult situations.
Lewis’ two kayo defeats against Hasim Rachman and Oliver McCall were from quick one-punch kayos. Vladimir might have the power to duplicate this but would probably be too cautious against Lewis’ own power to get in such a blow. Vlad basically gave up against Ross Purity. He showed grit in his other two kayo defeats against Cory Sanders and Lamon Brewster. But once in trouble against these men he never untracked. He survived the onslaught of the powerful but unskilled Samuel Peter and legitimately won the fight but had to scramble and hug to do so. His training was then taken over by Manny Steward who taught him his present effective - but safety-first - style of slowly picking foes apart with his jab.
Lennox on the other hand (unless knocked cold) is good at riding out tough situations. Vitali Klitschko, Frank Bruno and Shannon Briggs had him in tough spots that he fought out of. He’s also good at taking advantage of openings and quickly finishing opponents such as Razor Ruddock, Andrew Golata and Michael Grant when he quickly got them in trouble.
Lennox might rush Vladimir, get him in trouble quickly - as with Ruddock, Golata and Grant -  and finish him. Most likely the bout would last a good while and  be close, perhaps with Vlad’s “steel hammer” jabs putting him slightly in the lead. But Lennox stays out of real trouble and at some point gets the giant Ukranian in difficulty and efficiently finishes him.

Experts Predicted Outcome: Lewis winner 2-1
Moontan                              Wladimir Klitschko by Decision
Carney                                 Lewis by Knockout
Boxing Forums                  108 to 22 in favor of Lennox Lewis

Lewis advances to the next round.

You decide who wins the bout: Klitschko or Lewis

Vote now! results will appear after you vote.


Evander Holyfield vs. Vitali Klitschko

Evander Holyfield              Vitali Klitschko

Evander Holyfield 6’2  1/2 ”, 210   vs.  Vitali Klitschko 6’7”, 245
    1990-1992, 1993-1994                 2004-2005

Fight Advantages:
Hand Speed-Holyfield, Boxing Ability- Holyfield, KO Power-Klitschko, Chin-Klitschko, Size-Klitschko, Defense-Klitschko, Endurance-Holyfield, Adaptability-No Advantage, Foot Speed-Holyfield, Strength- Klitschko, Jab-Klitschko, Cuts-Holyfield, Reach-(Holyfield 78”) (Klitschko 79”) No Advantage, Body Attack-No Advantage: Total Klitschko  6-5-3

By Moontan

One of the great warriors in ring history, Evander  the “REAL DEAL” against the force of Vitali Klitschko. This would be a great matchup that could have easily taken place in the early 2000s even if Holyfield was well past his prime. Holyfield could fight bigger fighters as he proved against Riddick Bowe, but he did lose two out of three to the big fellow. Against Vitali he would be facing a tremendous defensive fighter who liked to lean back making his size even more of a factor. I think Holyfield would have very limited success on the outside so he would be forced to get inside and try to mix it with the big fella. I see Holyfield’s heart and tremendous courage making it a good fight but Vitali is just too tough as he starts pilling up round after round. I see Vitali taking a rather comfortable 15 round decision. Holyfield’s fast hands and tremendous combinations serve him very well throughout the contest as he is able to get the better of the Ukrainian in quick exchanges. But Vitali continually holds and grabs nullifying Holyfield’s speed of foot and hand.

Jim Carney

I give a slight edge to Klitschko. Both men have good offensive skills and iron jaws. Vitali is the harder or more consistently harder puncher. (Holyfield's punch seems to vary between A and B-) Vitali is also the better defensive fighter and has a huge size advantage - which is balanced by the fact that Evander has fought the tougher opponents, particularly his heart-displaying trilogy with Riddick Bowe. All in all, Vitali's and Evander's performances against Lennox Lewis - though the fights are much different - are probably comparable. Vitali appeared to lack heart against Chris Byrd, but it turned out that he simply hadn't learned the American "no quit" ethic and he later showed great manliness against Lewis.

Although Evander had plenty of experience against really big men, Vitali's edge in size and defense make him my pick by a 15-round close decision.

East Side Boxing Forum Results
Holyfield by decision                      62
Holyfield by KO                                 11
Vitali Klitschko by decision           51
Vitali Klitschko by KO                      41

Winner Vitali 92 to 73

Experts Predicted Outcome: Vitali Klitschko 3-0
Moontan                             Vitali 15-D
Carney                                Vitali 15-D
East Side Forum              Vitali

Vitali Klitschko advances to the next round.

You decide who wins: Holyfield or Klitschko

Vote now! Results appear after you vote.


Dream Fights Quarterfinal Match-Up-Winners Bracket
George Foreman vs. Vitali Klitschko

 George Foreman      Vitali Klitschko

         George Foreman                     Vitali Klitschko

               1973-1974                                2004-2005

                6’3”, 225                                   6’7”, 245

 

Fight Advantages: Hand Speed-No Advantage, Boxing Ability-Vitali, KO Power-Foreman, Chin-Foreman, Size-Vitali, Defense-Vitali, Endurance-Vitali, Adaptability-Vitali, Foot Speed-No Advantage, Strength-Foreman, Jab-No Advantage, Cuts-Foreman, Reach-Foreman 82”, Vitali 79”; Advantage Foreman, Body Attack-Foreman:

Results: Foreman 6-4-4

 

Moontan, Heavyweightaction.com boxing expert:

Very hard fight to pick between these two tremendous fighters; Foreman had three different stages to his career and he was really good in all three stages. Pre-Ali was his best years when he was aggressive with a telephone pole like jab, quick feet and great endurance. That fighter would be very difficult to beat for the big Ukrainian, Vitali Klitschko. Vitali was a master boxer with great defense and very allusive.  Foreman would be the strongest opponent that Vitali would have ever faced. Foreman’s jab would have been the best Vitali has seen. Vitali has never faced a fighter who could take a punch as well as Foreman with incredible recovery powers. In Vitali, Foreman would be fighting a master boxer with great defensive skills and size. In his prime Foreman lost to two fighters who were very smooth and slick defensive fighters who slipped a lot of punches. By the time Foreman lost to Young he had altered his style somewhat. He was not as aggressive and his footwork was slower. Also in both of Foreman losses the elements played as much of a role in the fights as his opponent. The heat and humidity were incredible in both fights.

                Who had the better jab is a big question about who would win this fight. Vitali’s was more of a pawing action but very affective. Foreman could knock you out with his jab. Contrary to what most people believe about Foreman and his endurance his stamina was not all that bad. He went 10 rounds with Peralta a very good boxer in his younger years on two different occasions. I see Vitali fighting from long range as usual but not having as much success because of Foreman’s superior reach.

                If Vitali decided to get into exchanges with Foreman he would not last too long even though he has never been on the canvas. I have to go with Foreman’s power inside seven rounds. I think he would walk right through a lot of Vitali’s punches and eventually score the knockout.

                And Another Thing-I think a lot of people feel think that if Ali and Young could out box Foreman than so Vitali, but Ali and Young were very slick and elusive and quick. Vitali quickness is limited by his size and he would find it hard to get away from Foreman’s thunderous punches. Lennox Lewis stood up to Vitali’s best shots and Foreman had a much better chin than Lennox. I think Foreman would eventually get Vitali into exchanges and that would be the fight.

 

Jim Carney, author and Boxing Expert:

Not long ago in an article I matched both Klitschkos against all linear heavyweight champions and picked Foreman to win his bout with Vitali.  My reasoning was that big George had fought some very tough opponents and prevailed in some tough fights. While it can be argued that while Vitali had fought the best of his times, the only really first-rate man he’s met is Lennox Lewis. However, after some serious thought I have cautiously changed my pick.

I definitely think that Vitali would handily outpoint the post-1987 Foreman. With the 1970-77 version, George would have had the advantage after the first seven rounds. While Vitali has strength and punch to burn, George – to my mind - is the Man in these areas. Both men have great chins, but George’s would burn out with the rest of him after the first seven rounds.

Vitali’s durability, his own power and the fact that George is not used to fighting men four or five inches taller and 20-30 pounds heavier and – above all – the Ukranian’s excellent defense keep it competitive over seven rounds. Remember, Vitali has seldom if ever been staggered or hurt and has never been floored. He did fight at least two or three excellent hitters - Corey Sanders and Lennox Lewis, who hit him, and Sam Peters, who really didn’t.

Come the eighth round, where fair hitter Muhammad Ali knocked him out and powder-puff- hitter Jimmy Young knocked him down, Vitali is hitting George with big punches and might win by a late stoppage. If not, he would hammer Foreman enough to overcome George’s early lead and win by decision.

Boxing Scene Forum:

Foreman 25 Vitali 15

East Side Boxing:

Foreman 10 Vitali 3

 

Experts Predicted Outcome: Foreman winner 3-1

Moontan                             Foreman 7-KO

Jim Carney                          Vitali 15-D

Boxing Scene Forum       Foreman 25-15

East Side Boxing               Foreman 10-3

George Foreman move on the Semi-Finals along with Ali, Liston and Lennox Lewis.

 


Dream Fights Quarterfinal Match-Up-Winners Bracket

Ali vs. Louis

Ali defeated Riddick Bowe in the First Round
Joe Louis defeated Jack Dempsey in the First Round

Muhammed Ali     Joe Louis

Muhammad Ali 6’3”, 215    vs.    Joe Louis 6’1”, 190
   1964-67, 1973-78, 1978                1937-1949

Fight Advantages:
Hand Speed-No Advantage, Boxing Ability-Ali, KO Power-Louis, Chin- Ali, Size-Ali, Defense-Ali, Endurance-No Advantage, Adaptability-Ali, Foot Speed-Ali, Strength-No Advantage, Jab-No Advantage, Cuts-No Advantage, Reach –Ali(78”), Louis(77”), No Advantage , Body Attack-Louis:
Total: 6-2-6 for Muhammad Al

By Jim Carney -Expert: Judge
This has probably replaced Louis vs. Dempsey as the ultimate all-time match-up. Ali is somewhat bigger (almost two inches in height and six inches in reach); his best weight is 201-225 vs. Joe’s 195-214. Ali is much faster of foot and somewhat quicker of hand. Strength is debatable, though both Ali and his trainer Angelo Dundee seemed almost phobically negative about Muhammad doing strength work, he seemed well-endowed in that area. Dundee, who trained many powerful men, picked Ali as the strongest he ever worked with. (Whether Angelo counted super-powerful George Foreman, whose corner he was in for the Michael Moorer fight, is not known here. But Dundee mentioned that Ali handled Foreman along with brawny Sonny Liston and bullied Joe Frazier in the clinches.

As or Louis, he illustrated his strength when he lifted and tossed huge Primo Carnera into the ropes. (Whatever Carnera’s flaws as a fighter were, he was just as big and strong as he looked.) I don’t know what kind of strength work he did in training, but an early job carrying heavy blocks of ice up flights of stairs no doubt helped Joe in this area. As far as connecting this strength (and speed and weight) into punching power, Louis holds a huge edge. Ali could throw a big one occasionally, but almost everything Louis threw was dangerous.

Although Joe’s greatness in many areas is well acknowledged, his chin is generally underrated. This is particularly true in comparison with Jack Dempsey but also in general evaluations. Louis’ chin seemed indestructible up to and including his toe-to-toe thrashing of hard-hitting, iron-jawed Max Baer. But after power-hitting Max Schmeling stopped him in 12 rounds with an almost limitless number of deadly rights (Max is said to have stated that he‘d never seen anyone take such punishment) Joe seems to have lost a little durability. Still, his chin remained solid. The men who would later floor him (Jimmy Braddock, Tony Galento, Buddy Baer, Jersey Joe Walcott and Rocky Marciano) were all excellent to great hitters.

Ali, on the other hand, was knocked down early in his career by good but not great hitter Sonny Banks and Henry Cooper. He seemed to become more durable as he matured (Dempsey and Liston are two others this applies to). This capacity was first discovered when he weathered many hard wallops in his bouts with Oscar Bonzavena and Frazier (first fight). Someone once said that the best and the worst thing to happen to Ali was discovering he could take a punch. On one occasion he fought from two to nine rounds against hard-hitting Ken Norton with a broken jaw. In our match-up, given their relative power, Ali has more need of a good chin than does Louis.

Ali has a slight edge on skill – but only slight. Superior speed is often mistaken for superior technique. Both men were well-schooled and self-motivated to learn. Both also had tactical flaws. Louis frequently paid more attention to the wisdom of his trainer (both had excellent mentor and corners). Ali had more creative and innovative powers, but Louis was a better ring thinker than is supposed and Ali also sometimes tried hare-brained ring strategies. An example of this is trying the rope-a-dope (which had succeeded with the stamina-short Foreman) against the tireless Frazier and the super-fit Norton.

Neither man was susceptible to cuts These may well have been the two heavyweight champs with the most experience against a variety of tough opponents and styles (Ezzard Charles is another). Both met and beat top men reminiscent of each other. Ali fought plenty of big hitters. Sonny Liston particularly resembled Louis with a bigger reach and tougher chin (though with less polish and experience and a less active right hand). Louis struggled with but ultimately stopped master boxers Billy Conn and Walcott, though these two were smaller, slightly slower and probably less durable than Ali. But Walcott could punch harder than Muhammad and Conn was constantly punching and didn’t have Ali’s penchant for sometimes bouncing around wasting time and sometimes losing points doing so.

This bout is nip and tuck. I believe Ali ultimately has the edge on style, but Joe’s deadly power wins him his share of rounds. I go with Ali 8-5-2 over 15 rounds.

By Moontan{Judge} HeavyweightAction.com Boxing Expert
Two fighters that dominated their generations; Louis, who dominated my parent’s generation and Ali who dominated my generation; I remember as a young boy asking my mother about Louis and he almost became a god like figure in my young mind. To say anyone could beat him was almost sacra religious. I have so much respect for the both of them for what they accomplished and even more what they did for the sport of boxing.

Classic match-up between boxing and struggler; Louis had a great deal of trouble with fighters that boxed and moved like Billy Conn and Jersey Joe Walcott. Conn was little more than a light heavyweight and Walcott only weighed 190 pounds. Against Ali, Louis would be facing the fastest and quickest boxer he has ever faced. Ali on the other hand had trouble with fighters who fought low and were constantly attacking like Frazier and Kenny Norton. Louis would have a very hard time fighting from a distance against the faster Ali and getting inside would be difficult because of Ali’s holding tactics. A lot of boxing experts feel Louis would be able to reach Ali and get him cornered for the kill but Ali was so very tough to put away and had great recovery powers. I see the fight looking a great deal like Ali vs. Doug Jones in 1963, a fight that Ali dominated even though two of the judges who scored the fight said it was a close fight. I don’t know what fight they were watching. I have viewed the Jones-Ali fight many times and I think the referee scored it correctly 8-1-1 in favor of Ali. I see Ali winning a 15 round decision over the “Brown Bomber”. Ali was a great defensive fighter as well and one of the great boxers of all time. He would prove to be too much for Louis.

East Side Boxing By Bill Ross
One of the most comprehensive looks at the Joe Louis-Muhammad Ali fight.

Winner Ali:
http://www.eastsideboxing.com/news.php?p=5901&more=1

Graham Houston ESPN
I consider Louis the greatest of all heavyweight champions in terms of physical tools. He was a superb fighting machine. At about 6-foot-2 and 200 pounds, he would have been the smaller man in the ring, but he would also have been the puncher in the fight. Louis might have been able to put heavy pressure on Ali -- moving in behind the jab, getting off with sharp, hard hooks and right hands, especially if Ali went to the ropes. One must think back to Louis' first fight with the smaller Billy Conn, though, when he was clearly out boxed for 12 rounds before winning in the 13th. Ali would have been able to avoid sustained punishment by moving this way and that, and his snaking left jab and crisp rights, backed up by some well-judged combinations, would have scored points.

Verdict: Ali by decision in a grueling fight. By Graham Houston ESPN
http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/boxing/news/story?id=3535766

Michael J. Jones LIVE FIGHT
Verdict: Ali by a very close decision
http://www.livefight.com/news.php

Cox’s Corner
Verdict- Louis
http://coxscorner.tripod.com/alilouis.html

Experts Predicted Outcome: Ali winner by a count of 4-1
Moontan                                             Ali 15-D
Houston ESPN                                 Ali 15-D
Ross Eastside Boxing                    Ali
Michael J. Jones Live Boxing         Ali
Cox’s Corner                                     Louis

Muhammed Ali advances to the Semi-Finals.

You decide who wins: Ali or Louis

Vote now! Results appear after you vote.


Dream Fight Quarterfinal Match-Up-Winner Bracket
Liston vs. Tyson

Liston defeated Rocky Marciano in the First Round Match-up
Tyson defeated Gene Tunney in his First Round Fight
   
               
 Sonny Liston  6’1  ½”, 218        Mike Tyson  5’11”, 220
1962-1964                                   1988-1990

Fight Advantages:
Hand Speed- Tyson, Boxing Ability- Liston, KO Power-No Advantage, Size-Liston, Defense-Liston, Endurance-No Advantage, Adaptability-Liston, Foot Speed-Tyson, Strength-No Advantage, Jab-Liston, Cuts-No Advantage, Reach-Liston(84”) and Tyson(71”), Body Attack-Tyson:
Total: 6-3-4 for Liston

Jim Carney- Author and Boxing Expert: Tyson vs. Liston

Steel and concrete here. Perhaps the two heavyweight champions you’d least like to meet in a dark alley (although Dempsey, Foreman, Jeffries and John L. would also be especially fearsome in that venue). In addition, both Sonny and Iron Mike may have the same major flaws.

Both are extremely strong and able to convert their strength into punching power. Tyson also has quicker than average hands, which added to his power and defensive ability. He is generally considered above Sonny in this area – Liston’s hand speed being rated average by some, above average by others. Tyson also had the edge in foot speed, though this might mean less than in other match-ups as both would basically be coming forward. A huge advantage for Liston would be his 13-inch edge in reach, whose value is enhanced by what many consider the most powerful left jab of all time. Liston would appear to have the edge in durability, though Tyson rates well here too. Many may feel that the fact that Mike hit the floor more times than Sonny relates to a weaker heart rather than a weaker chin.

Both men are suspect in the matter of heart and there are specific parallels between them in this area. Each man folded when they met a man around their own talent  level at their peak – Liston with Ali and Tyson with Holyfield. They also both were total embarrassments in their rematches with their exposers – Liston futiley chasing Ali then flopping down in round one and Tyson being outmuscled and outfought and then biting Holyfield twice before being disqualified in round three.

In other areas of this match-up, the pair is close in weight, Liston’s height advantage is not significant to Tyson (virtually all of his major opponents were at least a little taller than Sonny). Though Liston and Tyson have fought men with the same main assets (strength and punch) that they face in each other, I don’t know that Mike ever fought an oncoming fighter who combined brawn and skill with a mercilessly glacial approach like Liston. Likewise, Sonny never met a man with Mike’s hard-hitting, ferocious (and in the beginning) bobbing and weaving attack.

Tyson was probably the better schooled under Cus D’Amato and Kevin Rooney, but Liston’s trainer Willie Reddish was solid and Sonny had the benefit of training with and serving as a sparring partner for master boxer and former great heavyweight champion Ezzard Charles. Both men rate well in the skill department. However, after the deaths of D’Amato and Jimmy Jacobs and the firing of Rooney, Tyson grew notably sloppier in his ring techniques. Testimony to Liston’s skill is given by Muhammad Ali who notes that Sonny was smart in the ring. Overall, there wasn’t much difference in the quality of foes each man met and beat.

Both Sonny and Mike were hard trainers but they were also capable of neglecting training because of overconfidence. Neither was susceptible to cuts and neither had a stamina problem that some fighters with brawny arms had to deal with. Both were equally good at psyching their opponents out.
In this dream matchup, the pair begins by competing with each other to intimidate. Tyson talks of dire consequences for Sonny and gets the famous Liston stare in return. The battle is a nip and tuck smashing war from the beginning. Tyson goes low to the body and switches to uppercuts while Sonny stabs with his awesome jab, sometimes adding left hooks and occasional right crosses to the mix. The battle swings back and forth. Despite the fact that Mike’s short arms and more or less equal strength should give him an advantage in the infighting. Sonny dominates here. For some reason, all Mike usually does in close is hold on, sometimes even grabbing the other party and holding even when he is winning an exchange.

During his career, Tyson folded in a number of different circumstances, including incidences when he was being overpowered. Liston, on the other hand, usually only had trouble (and only gave in against Ali) when he was fighting men with styles confusing to him. In brawn to brawn confrontations he was always a man’s man. He flattened powerful Cleveland Williams after Williams had  broken his nose at the start of one of their bouts. Zora Folley hit him 30 straight shots against the ropes – and then Sonny steamrolled him. Sonny also went through one of his three fights with Marty Marshall with a broken jaw. I don’t think Mike would fare that well in these situations. That’s the difference between the two and that’s why I pick Liston by a late round kayo.

By Moontan(Judge) Heavyweightaction.com  -Expert

Very difficult matchup between two of the strongest heavyweight champions in history. Both dominated their division for a brief period as thoroughly as anybody has seen. Tyson from 1986 to 1990 and Liston from 1959 to 1964. Both loss their title in two of the biggest upsets in heavyweight history. Ali was a 7 to 1 underdog to Liston while Buster Douglas had even greater odds against Tyson.

Both were tremendous fighters that intimidated their opponents and relied on it to big advantages in many of their fights. Neither fighter held must because the were constantly coming forward throwing punches. Their opponents were always holding and grabing trying to stay upright.

The Tyson that I am comparing in this fight was the person who dominated boxing from 1986 to 1990 before he had all types of struggles with the law and did not work or train as hard. The Liston that I am ranking was the top fighter in the world from 1959 to 1963.  Tyson was never as dominating in the 1990s as he was earlier and Liston of course declined rapidly after his fights with Patterson. Both made a good living on their reputations during the later part of their careers.
I watched more fight footage comparing these two fighters than any of the previous matches we have picked. Watching Tyson in his match against Razor Ruddock and Liston in his fight against Cleveland Williams. Ruddock had very similar size to Liston and Cleveland Williams was the most powerful fighter that Liston faced during his career. Most fighters who survived Liston boxed and moved and tied him up inside(Eddie Machen). Williams did not, he was the aggressor while the fight lasted and Liston took everything he threw at him and knocked Williams out in third round. Tyson took numerous shots from Ruddock in both their fights and Razor lasted the full 12 rounds in their second fight. Tony Tucker also gave Tyson a lot of trouble with his reach but he held and grabbed which Liston would not be doing. I see Liston’s jab and reach being a big factor in the contest as well as his outstanding boxing ability and his offensive skills. The only fighter Tyson ever faced with the offensive skills and power of Liston was Lennox Lewis and Tyson did not fair well against the Brit. Liston was much stronger than Lewis.  I don’t see the fight lasting long  because both fighters were so aggressive. Give me Liston in a 6th round knockout.

Tyson Top fights:
1986 Trevor Berbick               2-KO  w           {#21 Generation 1978-2004} 
1987 Bonecrusher Smith        12-D  w  120-106,119-107,119-107 {#32 Generation}
1987 Pinklon Thomas              6-KO  w           {#11 Generation 1978-2004}
1987 Tony Tucker                   12-D  w   118-113,119-111,117-112 {#23 Generation}
1988 Larry Holmes(38)           4-KO  w           {#5 Generation 1978-2004 past prime}
1988 Michael Spinks               1-KO  w           {#17 Generation 1978-2004}
1989 Frank Bruno                   5-KO  w           {#29 Generation 1978-2004}
Liston Top fights:
1958 Wayne Bethea               1-KO  w           {#28 Generation 1956-1977}
1959 Cleveland Williams        3-KO  w           {#17 Generation 1956-1977}
1959 Nino Valdes                    3-KO  w           {#12 Generation 1929-1955}
1960 Cleveland Williams        2-KO  w           {#17 Generation 1956-1977}
1960 Roy Harris                      1-KO  w           {#34 Generation 1956-1977}
1960 Zory Folley                     3-KO  w           {#14 Generation 1956-1977}
1960 Eddie Machen                12-D  w  119-112, 118-114, 118-116 {#13 Gen. 1956-77}
1962 Floyd Patterson              1-KO  w           {#9 Generation 1956-1977}
1963 Floyd Patterson              1-KO  w           {#9 Generation 1956-1977}

The Sweet Science: by Frank Lotierzo  Jan.,2005
Who Would've Won

A Liston-Tyson confrontation comes down to two things: who would've backed up, and who would've been the least intimidated by the other. I know this may not be popular, but I just can't envision Liston being intimidated by Tyson. Liston had no fear of Clay/Ali, and on top of that he kept going after a hard puncher like Cleveland Williams, who was in his prime at the time, even after having been nailed by bombs from Williams. Liston also chased down Marty Marshall despite having a broken jaw for the majority of the fight. This is in contrast to Tyson, who would go into long defensive shells and stop throwing punches when faced with an opponent who attacked him with big shots. I believe in a battle of wills, Sonny convinces Mike that he's not going to win easier than Mike convinces Sonny that it's not his night.

The fact that I think Liston wins the psychological warfare translates into the physical fight and how it plays out. I think Tyson may try to jump on Liston like he did Holyfield and Lewis at the onset. The first round or two would be incredible. Tyson would probably come on very quickly, almost recklessly, and his movement and fast hands might provide him with a measure of success. But then he'd face his first problem, Liston wouldn't fall. And, of course, Liston always fired back.

All it would take would be a few of those telephone pole jabs to take all the starch out of Tyson mentally. I also doubt he'd have the nerve to pull any ear-biting, arm-breaking crap with Liston. Once Tyson gets second thoughts about coming in with impunity and starts to think his way through the fight, he's in trouble. The moment Liston senses that Tyson has some reservations, he'd pick up the pace and apply even more mental and physical pressure.

 The way I see it, Liston stops Tyson. He had the jab reach and power, along with the style, to neutralize Tyson and his greater hand speed. On top of that, Sonny takes away Tyson's biggest weapon, the intimidation factor. It says here that Tyson is the one who harbors self-doubt, and it is Tyson who would be unsure of himself during the stare down as he faced Liston in the center of the ring before the bell for round one.
http://www.thesweetscience.com/news/articles/1574-what-if-sonny-liston-vs-mike-tyson

Cyber Boxing Zone Message Board:
Sonny Liston   7
Mike Tyson      3

Yahoo Message Board:
Sonny Liston    5
Mike Tyson      6

Cox’s Corner
If anyone could intimidate Mike Tyson it would be Sonny Liston. Liston’s awesome 84-inch reach, destructive jab, and deadly hooks and uppercuts would spell trouble for Iron Mike. As Tyson moved in he would be greeted by Sonny’s thunderous long jab. Liston was at least Tyson’s equal in terms of sheer power. Sonny was also under-rated as a boxing technician. Liston would hammer Tyson at long range, control the tempo of the fight, and batter Tyson much worse than Douglas ever could. By the eighth round Tyson would have trouble seeing Sonny’s punches and a murderous barrage would send him down for the count.

Update 2004: Wow. I wrote this description in 1992 and it would have almost fit his fight with Lennox Lewis almost perfectly. The fight ended in the eighth round, Tyson was cut over his eyes, and he could not penetrate the bigger mans left jab. Liston’s reach is also the same as Lennox Lewis. This was sort of my upset pick in 1992 but it does make sense and I will stick by it.
http://coxscorner.tripod.com/tyson93bs.html

Experts Predicted Outcome: Liston’s favor 5-1
Jim Carney                  Liston KO late 
Moontan                       Liston 6-KO
Frank Lotierzo             Liston
Cox’s Corner               Liston KO
Cyber Boxing Zone     Favor Liston 7-3
Yahoo Message          Favor Tyson 6-5

Sonny Liston advances to the Semi-Finals along with Muhammad Ali who beat Joe Louis.

You decide who wins: Liston or Tyson

Vote now! Results appear after you vote.


Quarterfinal Match-Up-Winners Bracket
Frazier vs. Lewis

Frazier advanced to the Quarterfinals by defeating Jack Johnson
Lewis advanced to the Quarterfinals by defeating Wladimir Klitschko

Joe Frazier      Lennox Lewis
Joe Frazier 5’11”, 205                                Lennox Lewis 6’5”, 245
           1970-1973                                             1998-2001, 2001-04

Fight Advantages:
Hand Speed-No Advantage, Boxing Ability-Lewis, KO Power-Lewis, Chin-Frazier, Size-Lewis, Defense-Lewis, Endurance-Frazier, Adaptability-Lewis, Foot Speed-Lewis, Strength-Lewis, Jab-Lewis, Cuts-No Advantage, Reach-Lewis 84” to 73”, Body Attack-Frazier:
Total:  9-3-2 for Lennox Lewis

Moontan, Boxing Expert from Heavyweightaction.com-Judge
Frazier has some big advantages in this fight, his endurance pushing a very fast pace which Lennox is not used to fighting at and a body attack that Lewis has never seen before. Lewis on the other hand has the enormous size and power of George Foreman and the boxing ability of Ali. These were the only two fighters who ever defeated “SMOKIN JOE”. In this fight Frazier would be giving up too much size and length against Lewis. If you look at Lewis’s fight against the powerful David Tua who was very similar in size to Joe Frazier (Tua outweighed Frazier by 40 pounds), you can see how difficult it would have been to get inside against Lennox Lewis and his powerful jab. Lewis dominated his fight against Tua and I think he would have done the same against Frazier. Joe would have taken too much punishment trying to work his body shots and been knocked out anywhere after the 8th or 9th round.

Eastside Boxing Forum Totals:
Lewis by KO                       46
Lewis by decision            8
Frazier by KO                     32
Frazier by decision          5
Lewis winner 54 to 37 over Frazier

Jim Dorney East Side Boxing
This is (in my opinion) probably the worst match-up style-wise in the list for Lewis. Versus David Tua Lewis was able to stay on the outside & pot-shot all night long, but Frazier is a very different animal to Tua. Frazier’s hit just as hard if not harder, never tired & was very effective at wearing his man down. The only time he was ineffective was the two times he fought George Foreman, who is stylistically very different to Lewis. Lewis would not back down easily & would use his strength well, targeting Frazier’s bobbing head with overhand rights & clubbing hooks to the body, but I reckon this would play out similar to the Lewis vs. Mercer battle, with Joe getting, and deserving, a close decision verdict in a bruising war.
Result – Frazier beats Lewis by majority decision.

Joe Torcello, The Boxing Magazine.com
The question for Frazier would be, would he (at the very least) be able to keep his hands moving enough over the course of 10, 12 or 15 rounds to outpunch a giant Heavyweight opponent like a Klitschko or a Lewis and take a decision?

Or, would a punishing jab result in the kind of eye swelling he suffered against?

My belief is – the younger version who fought Ali the first time had enough speed and head movement to avoid “eating jabs” all night long against the best of the big men. Frazier would also be punching “up” which, as Rocky Marciano once said, gives a puncher an edge in being able to use his legs to generate additional power.

I don’t like the way he matches up against Vitali Klitschko for the same reasons he suffered two one-sided losses against George Foreman. I do, however, give him a decent chance at chopping down Wlad Klitschko or Lennox Lewis or being busy enough to take a decision against either man. Either way you look at it, he would take some hard punches in the process and have to survive some anxious moments over the course of the fight. Neither Lewis nor Klitschko exhibited the ability to soak up punishment or recover well after being badly hurt during their careers. Against Joe Frazier, a safety-first approach would almost certainly be in the back of both fighter’s minds.

Of the three, Vitali Klitschko would probably been Frazier’s toughest assignment. While I wouldn’t rule out knockout victories against Lewis or Wlad Klitschko, I have an easier time envisioning him outworking them and earning decision win over 12 rounds.

By Boxing Experts, Jim Carney
A tough one. Lewis as shown against Mike Tyson and David Tua, really knew how to use his height advantage against very short heavyweights( (though he had problems with two heavyweights of intermediate height, Ray Mercer and Evander Holyfield). Frazier fought well against taller opponents – Buster Mathis, Muhammad Ali and Joe Bugner.) Height was a factor in his losing bouts against George Foreman, but not so much as were Joe’s lack of skill under fire and the fact that he, an unusually slow starter, was taking on a fast starter and excellent finisher in Foreman. George’s advantage in sheer strength was also a major factor. It also should be noted that Tua fought a lazy, uninspired fight against Lewis. And Tyson was really washed up when he fought Lennox.

Besides his advantage in height and reach, Lennox would bring a solid weight advantage into the confrontation. Not much difference in foot speed, Frazier may have an edge in hand speed, threw more punches and probably takes a punch better. Overall skills are probably well-matched. Frazier was tireless and I don’t remember Lennox ever having a stamina problem. Both fought the best of their time. Frazier’s era was better, but Lennox has a solid record and resume too. Both men are excellent punchers.

The bout probably begins with Lennox giving Joe a pounding that Frazier never recovers from, or – at any rate – fails to make up for. The prediction here is that he will lose, by either kayo or decision and if by knockout, it’s tough to pick the round. But if Frazier comes out of the first round in decent shape, then his chin, volume of punches and even greater experience in life and death wars switches the edge to him. This could also be by kayo or decision, with the round for the kayo hard to determine. Ultimately then I pick Joe if there was no first round. Unfortunately for him that is an impossibility.

Thus, my nod goes to Lennox.

Frank Lotierzo: The Sweet Science
Frazier versus Lewis has some similarities to Marciano versus Lewis. Only Frazier had faster hands than Rocky and cut the ring off better. Frazier also faced a better jab than Lewis had in all three fights with Ali. Lewis' jab may have been harder than Ali's, but it was no where near as fast or accurate, and he didn't throw as many. Frazier made Ali miss with plenty of jabs in all three of their fights. Just ask Ali and Angelo Dundee, they have both admitted so often in public. Ali has been quoted as saying that Frazier was much tougher to hit than people think. Frazier was also great at cutting the distance and getting inside. He would've been vulnerable to getting caught coming in with Lewis' right hand, a punch Joe was vulnerable to early in a fight. However, if Frazier can get through the first couple of rounds with Lewis, which I think he could've. I see him knocking Lewis out after beating on his body and then coming up top with the hook to the head. Frazier would get inside better than Tua and do damage, and he wouldn't fold after one tough round like Tyson. Frazier also has plenty of power in his hook to put Lewis to sleep for the count of 10.

I like Frazier over Lewis, but I can definitely see a scenario where Lewis wins. If Frazier is around after the second round, it's all downhill for Lewis.

Experts Predicted Outcome:  Lennox Lewis wins the tie breaker by a count of 3-3*:
Moontan Heavyweight Action                                  Lewis 9-KO
Jim Carney Author                                                     Lewis
Joe Torcello The Boxing Magazine.com               Frazier 12-D
Eastside Boxing Forum                                             Lewis 54-37 total
Jim Dorney East Side Boxing                                   Frazier 15-D
Frank Lotierzo The Sweet Science                         Frazier

*Tie breaker in this very close fight is Moontan and Carney in agreement with Lewis having the advantage.

Lennox Lewis moves on to the Semi-Finals along with Ali and Liston.

You decide who wins: Frazier or Lewis


Semi-Finals Match-up in the Winners Bracket
Ali vs. Lennox Lewis

 

Ali advanced with wins over Riddick Bowe(3-0) and Joe Louis(4-1)

Lennox advanced with wins over Wladimir Klitschko(2-1) and Joe Frazier(3-3)

 

           Muhammad Ali   6’3”,215                                            Lennox Lewis  6’5”, 245

      1964-1967, 1974-1978, 1978-1980                               1998-2001, 2001-2004

 

Fight Advantages: Hand Speed-Ali, Boxing Ability-Ali, KO Power-Lewis, Chin-Ali, Size-Lewis, Defense-Ali, Endurance-No Advantage, Adaptability-Ali, Foot Speed-Ali, Strength-Lewis, Jab-Ali, Cuts-No Advantage, Reach-Lewis 84”, Ali  78”, Body Attack: No Advantage:

Total: 7-4-3 for Muhammad Ali

 

Moontan, Boxing Expert from Heavyweightaction.com-Judge

I went back and watched some old footage of Ali against Ernie Terrell, Sonny Liston, Zory Folley, Oscar Bonavena and Karl Mildenberger. He was one of the most phenomenal athletes and boxers to ever enter the ring. His speed puts him at a different level, his ability to dance and move and avoid punches while throwing lighting quick jabs has seldom been seen in a fighter of his size. Lennox Lewis was truly a great heavyweight, without question one of the greatest big fighters in ring history.

 

The matchup between Lewis and Ali would look a great deal like Ali’s fight against Ernie Terrell. Terrell was taller at 6’6” than Lewis and had an 82” reach compared to Lewis’s 84”. Lewis outweighed Terrell by about 25 pounds but against Ali this would be a disadvantage because the extra weight would make Lewis slower. Terrell was much quicker and faster than Lewis and had a better jab. Ali punished Terrell over 15 rounds and controlled the fight throughout. I see the fight against Lewis going the full 15 rounds with Ali winning a comfortable decision. Ali’s speed and quickness are just too much for the Brit.

 

Jim Carney Jr. Author and Boxing Expert:

Ali has plenty of trouble with Lewis.  A well rounded fighter with stellar punch, speed, conditioning, strength, killer instinct and very notable size.  Ali is outweighed 20-30 pounds with both at their best and Lennox has a two inch height advantage.  Muhammad had trouble in varying degrees with the four taller men he fought, Duke Sabedong, Ernie Terrell,  Joe Bugner and Chuck Wepner.  Lewis had far more stamina and punch than Terrell and probably more punch and certainly more motivation than Bugner. Lennox beat an impressive list of opponents, especially Evander Holyfield and Vitali Klitschko but he never fought anyone similar in style, let alone nearly as proficient at that style than Ali.  Ali's list of victims is ever more impressive.

 

It's a close nip and tuck fight but Mohammed has a definite lead when an accumulative of punches finally stop Lennox in the thirteenth round.

 

Jim Dorney Eastside Boxing

Whilst I expect this will throw a proverbial cat amongst the pigeons, I think Lewis beats Ali at least 6/7 times out of 10. Ali never faced an opponent who was as good a boxer as Lewis with the same amount of power and adaptability. Foreman had as much power (perhaps a little more, but not much) and Ali was able to win the tactical battle, but that wouldn’t happen with a fighter as intelligent and determined as Lewis. Ali would undoubtedly win rounds & catch the eyes of the judges at times with blurring flurries, but on the whole Lewis would keep him at the end of his ramrod jab most of the night, throwing in a liberal amount of right crosses & the occasional uppercut in close. Ali’s great chin & fighting heart see him through to the end, but he ends up taking the worst beating of his illustrious career in the process.
Result – Lewis beats Ali by unanimous decision.

http://www.eastsideboxing.com/news.php?p=13916&more=1

Yahoo Forum:

Muhammad Ali                     34

Lennox Lewis                          7

83% picked Ali

 

Boxing Scene Forum:

Muhammad Ali                     17

Lennox Lewis                          8

68% picked Ali

 

ESPN Graham Houston

 http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/boxing/news/story?id=3535766

 

Size, styles and psychology would all have played a big part in this fight.

Lewis, while not nearly as fluid or as fast as Ali, was a very big heavyweight at 6-foot-5 and around 245 pounds. Ali would have been the small man in the fight.

Ali's taunting of an opponent, the undermining of the other man's confidence, might not have worked against Lewis, who had a sort of professional remoteness.

Ali would have needed all his skill, moving Lewis around, seeking to get off first with the jab, darting in to score and sliding out, scoring in bursts. He did this and made it look easy against 6-foot-6 Ernie Terrell, but Lewis was a much bigger-framed, technically superior fighter and clearly a bigger puncher than the long and lanky Terrell.

Lewis' long-reaching left jab could have given Ali problems, and his right hand would have been a threat throughout the bout. Lewis, steady and calculating, would have been confident in his size and power and wouldn't have been intimidated. He could have timed his left hand, enabling him to match jabs with Ali. Lewis might even have outjabbed him, as Ken Norton was able to do.

Ali would have had to take some solid right hands, and his fake wobble wouldn't have rattled Lewis, who would simply have waited for an opportune moment to unload another thudding shot.

It's doubtful that Lewis would have lunged off-balance in his attempts to land the right; he would have held the center of the ring and waited for Ali to take risks.

In terms of style, and always bearing in mind the size difference, I think that the much bigger Lewis might have been completely wrong for Ali.

Verdict: Lewis on points in a tactical match without many thrills.

 

Chris DeBrie- Yahoo

http://voices.yahoo.com/the-playground-pick-em-muhammad-ali-9037145.html

 

Even imaginary fights are enough to give enthusiasts fits. When you are arguing about boxing, the first thing you do is pick apart the other guy.

One of the knocks on Lennox Lewis is that some of his career wins are suspect. By the time Tyson-Lewis happened, Mike was on the downside. Lennox's victory over Klitchsko was stopped because of cuts, in a fight that many believed the Russian would win. He turned down a reported $20 million for a rematch, retiring instead. The books only say that Lewis won, and the fact that he beat a younger fighter like Klitchsko, who was just as powerful and tactical, is a tick in the positive column.

As for Ali, his critics believe that time has made him seem more invincible than he really was. Film reveals some flaws in his technique, like his occasional half-hearted glove position after jabs. Ali did encounter trouble against quick, strong fighters who kept him close, like Joe Frazier.

Round 11:

The fists that punished other big men, including Foreman and Frazier, are still at work, swift as ever. Lewis backpedals, brushes the ropes, and sits down. One boot rises as he half-rolls on his back, and the photos of that instant become the collective image of the fight. He rises at the count of five, but doesn't respond to the referee's satisfaction. The fight is stopped by way of technical knockout (TKO).

It became obvious that Ali is too quick and strong for Lewis--a combo that the Brit cannot solve tonight. In the end, it is Muhammad Ali's night. Lennox's jab posed no difficulty for him, and Ali was simply lighter on his feet. He faced a few men of Lennox's size and intelligence, and almost always beat them. But Lewis never boxed such a combination of strength, intelligence, and grace.

Much was made of the strength of Lewis, who is almost thirty pounds heavier, but it is now clear that Ali's power was underrated. True punching power isn't just about physicality--it is timing and accuracy. Muhammad Ali may have been the best ever at picking his spots. No rope-a-dope needed.

 

Frank Lotierzo –The Sweet Science

In an Ali-Lewis hypothetical fight, I don't see Lennox presenting many problems for Ali. Lewis was too big, too cautious and slow to bother Ali. Plus, Lennox is a huge target for Ali's accurate combinations. Ali could pick his spots to go in and out, or stop and plant when he wanted. Ali would take Lewis to school and give him a complete boxing lesson. He was just too fast and good of a mover and boxer for Lewis. Another advantage Ali had was better stamina, and the ability to fight at a brisk pace from bell-to-bell when he was in top shape and focused. Ali was more vulnerable to smaller quick fighters like Jones, Young, and Ellis. How would Lewis win? He can't out box Ali, and he didn't punch good enough to get him out with one shot. Lewis' bread & butter punch was his right hand, Ali was vulnerable to the left-hook. He was never dropped by a right hand. Only Shavers really rocked Ali with big rights, and that was in late 1977 when he was almost 36 and shot. Lewis' only shot is to catch Ali with a big straight right hand at center ring and KO him, not a likely scenario. I can't see Lennox's right hand being any more dangerous to Ali than the hook of Liston and Frazier or any power punch in Foreman's arsenal. Even an old slow Ali ate plenty of rights from Shavers and didn't go down. I just don't see Lewis ever stopping Ali, which is the only way he could've won. Considering the fact that Ali had one of the greatest chin's in heavyweight history, it's virtually impossible for me to envision Lewis ever knocking him out. Lewis just doesn't have enough in his overall arsenal to beat a peak and focused Ali. Ali had it all over Lewis both mentally and physically.

Ali wins a one sided unanimous decision or stops a tired and beaten Lewis late in the fight.

 

Experts Predicted Outcome: Ali advances to the Finals 6-2

Moontan Heavyweight Action           Ali 15-D

Jim Carney Author                               Ali 13 KO

Yahoo Forum                                        Ali

Jim Dorney Eastside Boxing                Lewis 15-D

Boxing Scene Forum                           Ali

Graham Houston ESPN                        Lewis 15-D

Chris DeBrie Yahoo                              Ali 11-TKO

Frank Lotierzo Sweet Science           Ali KO Late

 

Muhammad Ali advances to the finals against Sonny Liston.

 

You decide who wins: Ali or Lewis

 


Semi-Finals Match-Up in the Winners Bracket:
Sonny Liston vs. George Foreman

Sonny Liston advanced to the Semi-Finals with wins over Rocky Marciano and Mike Tyson

George Foreman advanced to the Semi-Finals with two close wins over Holmes and Vitali Klitschko.

 

                 

             George Foreman                                      Sonny Liston

                   1973-1974                                              1962-1964

                   6’3 ½”, 225                                             6’1”, 218

                     76-5-0                                                      50-4-0

 

Fight Advantages:

Hand Speed-No Advantage, Boxing Ability-Liston, KO Power-No Advantage, Chin-No Advantage, Size-No Advantage, Defense-Liston, Endurance-Liston, Adaptability-No Advantage, Foot Speed-No Advantage, Strength-No Advantage, Jab-No Advantage, Cuts-No Advantage, Reach-Liston 84”, Foreman 82”, Body Punches-No Advantage:

Total: Liston 3-0-10

 

By Jim Carney, Author and Boxing Expert:

An ironic matchup. These two were once stablemates and became friends of sorts. Foreman was one of the few people Liston trusted to read to him. Sonny was somewhat of a hero to the younger man, who would sometimes carry his gear for him. Foreman noted that although he was taller and, in his opinion, stronger, Sonny was the one man he could never back up. Liston was somewhat past his prime when they sparred but still was formidable. George was somewhat short of his prime but already formidable – so perhaps things were evened out.

If the two met in a real bout in their respective primes, it would be an awesome clash. In my opinion, George has a slight edge in overall punch and strength and maybe a small one in durability. There’s probably not much to choose from in hand or foot speed. George is slightly taller and heavier but Sonny has a longer reach. Basic skill is about even with Sonny perhaps being a better ring thinker. Both are killers and finishers. Neither cuts easily.

The two land bombs from the beginning. Liston is floored twice and George once. Going into the eighth, Liston is tired but Foreman is exhausted. George goes down for a second time in the eighth and is knocked out in the ninth. George’s lack of stamina ultimately cost him this fight – as it did in his battles with Ali and Jimmy Young.

By Moontan, Heavyweightaction.com Boxing Expert:

This would be a classic confrontation with two of the most awesome fighters to ever enter the ring in their prime. They both dominated the heavyweight division until Ali defeated both of them in great matchups. Once again I will repeat the fact the both of Foreman’s losses while in his prime were under very humid and hot conditions which led to two master boxers being able to avoid Foreman rushes to survive and win the fights. Liston’s losses to Ali were unusual as well as Liston sat on his stole in the first fight against Ali claiming an injury and taking a dive in the second fight.  Neither fighter would be intimated by the other one in this fight and neither would back up a great deal. Liston however could change plans and box at a higher level than Foreman and because of this I would give him the edge in the fight. His ability to pace himself and box from a distance would be a big advantage as well as his fabulous left jab. Liston also had better head movement than Foreman moving back and forth. Big George’s favorite tactic of extending his arms to push an opponent off balance would not be affective against Liston because of Liston superior reach. The fighter’s size and build were very similar. I see the fight with a lot of fireworks and blows but both men took such a great wallop I can’t imagine the fight going the distance. I would give Liston a hard fought decision.

 

Bill Gallo- "These were two very strong and determined fighters. Liston really was a very good fighter. because of his negative personality, and the bizarre outcomes of the Ali fights, he isn't given as much credit as he deserves. He had a great jab, and knockout power in both hands. His mean persona made him appear bigger than he actually was.
The old Foreman was always going forward. I don't recall him ever taking backward steps. He thought he could knock everybody out. But he didn't have one-punch knockout power. His punches were usually heavy, thudding blows that wore guys down. It usually took Foreman several successive punches to knock a guy out. And when he wasn't successful, he was usually the one who would run down, as in his fights with Ali and Jimmy Young.
Foreman would come and go after Liston the way he did against Ali. But Liston was cagey. He would bide his time, slowing Foreman down with his jab. As the fight progressed, Liston would do more scoring. I see Liston coming on in the later rounds, taking control, and stopping Foreman sometime after the 10th round."

Bill Gallo is a veteran boxing writer and cartoonist from the New York Daily News.

Ernie Terrell- "Oh boy, it would have been something to watch! We're talking about two very tough men, not just tough fighters, Liston was a very good boxer in his prime, which was the late-50's and early-60's. I sparred with him, but since I was much taller, and was a boxer, his jab, which was one of his best weapons, didn't affect me the way it did most other fighters. Physically, he could do more in the ring than Foreman.
It's a shame Foreman couldn't combine the power and speed of his youth with the improved defense and maturity he shows today. Still, he was a very strong guy. Most of the men he knocked out he hurt first. Foreman had a great chin, but even greater determination. Getting up from those knockdowns and coming back to beat Ron Lyle proved what he was made of.
The fight would flow the same way Foreman-Lyle did. Both men would connect with big punches. But Liston was a better all-round boxer, and he was certainly a better puncher than Lyle. By no means would it be an easy fight for Liston. But I see him coming on as Foreman weakens, and scoring a knockout around the 11th round."

Chicago based promoter Ernie Terrell is a former WBA heavyweight champion.

Chuck Wepner- "I fought Liston in his last fight, and Foreman when he was on his way up, so I speak from experience when I say they were two of the hardest punchers ever. it would be hard to match two harder-hitting heavyweights. Even though I though Liston was at the end, I thought he was still a very good boxer. He took a good punch, and he had a lot of savvy. In his prime, he could do it all.
When he was younger, Foreman's most impressive quality was his awesome brute strength. He liked to push people around, but he could be wild with his punches, and that cost him against Muhammad Ali. He was alot like Liston then. Both liked to intimidate their opponents, but you couldn't intimidate either one of them. With George, though, it was an act; he's always been a good guy.
It would be an action packed fight. Both had good, hard jabs, and didn't hesitate to open up and throw bombs. But Liston was a much better boxer. I don't believe anyone could have beaten Liston in his prime, including Ali. I see Liston stopping Foreman in six or seven rounds."

A heavyweight contender in the 70's, Chuck Wepener was stopped by both Liston and Foreman.

http://boxingasylum.com/showthread.php?t=23199

Experts Predicted Outcome: Sonny Liston 5-0 over George Foreman

Moontan                        Liston 12-D

Gallo                             Liston 10-KO

Ernie Terrell                  Liston 11-KO

Chuck Wepner               Liston 7-KO

Jim Carney                    Liston 8-KO

Sonny Liston moves into the FINALS

 

You decide who wins: Liston or Foreman

 


Third Place Fight between
Lennox Lewis and George Foreman

Lennox advanced to the semi-finals with wins over Wladimir Klitschko(2-1) and Joe Frazier(3-3) and lost in the Semi-finals to Muhammad Ali(6-2).

Big George advanced to the semi-finals with a close win over Larry Holmes(2-1) and Vitali Klitschko(3-1)  and lost in the semi-finals to Sonny Liston(5-0).

 

Description: https://encrypted-tbn3.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQTAP1VceY850X1XzkFW82FdX-X0teJDxXJnMP0jlH2xmw2bNcV            

        George Foreman                  Lennox Lewis

                1973-1974                                1998-2001, 2001-2004

                      6’3”, 225                                             6’5”, 245        

 

Fight Advantages:

Hand Speed-Lewis, Boxing Ability-Lewis, KO Power-Foreman, Chin-Foreman, Size-No Advantage, Defense-Lewis, Endurance-Lewis, Adaptablility-Lewis, Foot Speed-No Advantage, Strength-Foreman, Jab-No Advantage, Cuts-No Advantage, Reach-No Advantage(Lewis 84”, Foreman 82”), Body Punches-Foreman:

Total: Lewis 5-4-5

 

Jim Carney Jr. Author and Boxing Expert:

In this one, big George is actually the smaller man. (I consider the 1970-77 George as the one in his prime). Both men can box and punch are strong and move well for their size. This is a rock 'em sock 'em battle. Lennox wins his share of the rounds. But ultimately his vulnerable chin betrays him before the eighth round (young George's endurance limit). Foreman by kayo before the eighth. A fierce battle up until then with George possibly hitting the canvas

Moontan Boxing Expert from Heavyweightaction.com

Classic fight and very hard to pick. My gut feeling just looking at the matchup is to give Lewis the edge because of his ability to box from a distance and move just as well as Foreman if not better. Lewis was very smart and would hold a great deal throughout the fight trying to tire Foreman out. Although Lewis had a great reach of 84”, Foreman was almost his equal with 82”. A lot of tying up and holding by Lewis and losing some of the early rounds but as the fight goes on I give Lewis the clear advantage and the win over 15 rounds. Lewis takes very few chances playing it safe.

Frank Lotierzo, Sweet Science

This fight has been discussed a lot recently. In a Foreman-Lewis fight, I see Foreman stopping Lewis. Lewis may be the better boxer, but versus Foreman it would never be a factor. It's even debatable that Lewis had the edge in hand speed over a 1970's Foreman. Foreman would've charged out of his corner and taken the fight right to Lewis. Lennox would be forced to fight, which would lead to his downfall. He doesn't have the punch or chin to hang with Foreman. Lennox could no way trade with Foreman, and he wasn't a good enough boxer to stay away from him. Lewis isn't even the bigger man. Lewis in his prime was in the 230's to mid 240's. Foreman was between 217 and 232 in the 1970's. He weighed 217 for Frazier and 232 for Lyle. Do you really think Foreman is the smaller man when he's only spotting 10-15 pounds to Lewis? I don't. Foreman is only two inches shorter, but he is the overall bigger and stronger man. He also had the superior chin. Foreman was the better puncher with either hand, and there is no doubt about who was tougher. Foreman was super tough mentally, something that is often overlooked by many. I just don't believe Lewis had anything to deter Foreman with. Lewis' only shot would be to get Foreman deep into the fight and tire him out. However, Lewis doesn't have the chin or the toughness to hold Foreman off to be around late in the fight. And don't buy that smoke that Foreman blows that Lewis is the greatest ever. Foreman is a huckster and a salesman who is just selling you his humble image. I know many who know Foreman personally, and I have been told by them that no way Foreman thinks Lewis is the greatest. In fact Foreman always says that Joe Louis is the greatest heavyweight champ ever. Joe Frazier is the greatest heavyweight champ under 6 feet tall, and Muhammad Ali is the greatest man to ever box.

 

Yahoo Forum:

Foreman advantage over Lewis 7-2

 

Boxing Scene Forum

Foreman advantage over Lewis 62-12

 

Experts Predicted Outcome: Foreman is the winner 4-1

Jim Carney Jr.                    Foreman 8-KO

Moontan                             Lewis 15-D         

Frank Lotierzo                   Foreman

Yahoo Forum                     Foreman

Boxing Scene Forum      Foreman

 

Winner of the 3rd Place fight is George Foreman.

 

You decide who wins: Foreman or Lewis


Fifth-Place Semi-Finals Matchup
between Joe Louis vs. Joe Frazier

Joe Frazier won his first round matchup against Jack Johnson 2-1

Joe Frazier lost in the quarterfinals to Lennox Lewis 3-3 (tie breaker)

Joe Louis won his first round matchup against Jack Dempsey 2-0-1

Joe Louis lost in the quarterfinals to Muhammad Ali 4-1

 

Description: Photobucket

 

                 Joe Louis 1937-1949                               Joe Frazier 1970-1973

                                6’1”, 190                                                 5’11”, 205

 

Fight Advantages:

Hand Speed-No Advantage, Boxing Ability-Louis, KO Power-No Advantage, Chin-Frazier, Defense-No Advantage, Endurance-No Advantage, Adaptability-Louis, Foot Speed-No Advantage, Strength-No Advantage, Jab-Louis, Cuts- No Advantage, Reach-Louis(77”), Frazier(73”), Body Attack-Frazier:

Total: 4-2-7  for Joe Louis

 

By Boxing Expert, Jim Carney

Though Louis is not the world's fastest starter, he scores over Frazier in the first round. After that it settles into a war. Louis' jab and better overall edge in skills are offset by Frazier's stylistic advantage. Louis also had trouble with crowders. Smokin' Joe's bob and weave and crouch would have given the Brown Bomber fits. Louis may be the slightly harder hitter overall and has the deadlier jab and possibly the better right. Frazier probably has a better left hand. But again, Frazier made up for this with the sheer volume of his punches. Louis' edge in upper body strength keeps it manageable in close, though Frazier's massive legs push him back. Louis was not a master of handling the situation when he was in trouble, but he has the edge on Frazier here and was a master finisher. This ultimately makes him the pick here in the battle of the two Joe's, getting the better of Frazier in a 10th round kayo.

Eastside Boxing Forum:

Joe Louis over Frazier 26-14

 

Saddo Boxing Forum:

Joe Frazier over Louis 4-3

 

Yahoo Boxing Forum:

Joe Louis over Frazier 9-2

 

Cyber Zone Boxing Forum:

Joe Louis over Frazier 11-1

 

Heavyweight Action Boxing Expert Moontan:

Well first of all I feel pretty good about my pick in this fight. Frazier had about a 15 pound advantage in weight in their primes while Louis had a four inch reach advantage. Godoy and Galento both gave Louis fits with their couching style and weaving. Godoy went the entire 15 rounds against Louis in the first fight while Galento floored Louis in their fight. Frazier was a very hard target to hit in his prime as Ali could attest to. Frazier was constantly moving and weaving and a very difficult target to hit. Only two fighters ever beat Joe Frazier and they were two of the greatest heavyweights to ever enter the boxing ring. In our tournament Ali finished first and Foreman finished third behind Liston. Ali lost the first fight clearly to Frazier. Do you think Louis could have beaten Ali on that night? I think there are very few heavyweights who could have ever beaten Muhammad Ali on March 8, 1971 like Frazier did. The second fight could have went either way and the “Thrilla in Manila” was clearly won by Ali with Frazier blind in one eye. Look at the punishment that Ali had to endure in Manila to come away with the victory. Do you think Louis could have endure that type of punishment. Foreman outweighed Joe Louis by 35 pounds in his prime. Do you think Louis could have pushed Frazier off balance and held him away like Foreman. I think Frazier would dominate the fight and win by knockout within 10 rounds. I hold Frazier in very high regard as I do Joe Louis. Few have or ever will dominate the way Louis dominated his era but look at the best fighters he ever faced in his prime. Max Schmeling, Primo Carnera, Jim Braddock, Billy Conn and Arturo Godoy; These fighters are not in the same stratosphere as Foreman, Quarry, Ali and Oscar Bonavena. Frazier’s style was such that he was not going to have a long glorious career because he was so aggressive. There can be little doubt about who had the longer and more outstanding careers but the question here is who would have won in their prime. I take Frazier.

 

Experts Predicted Outcome: Louis wins 2-1 over Frazier

Author and Boxing Expert Jim Carney             Louis 10-KO

Heavyweight Actions Expert Moontan           Frazier 10-KO

Boxing Forums                                                     Louis

 

Joe Louis advances to the 5th   place finals against the winner of Vitali Klitschko and Mike Tyson.

 

You decide who wins: Louis or Frazier

 


Fifth-Place Semi-Finals Matchup
between Mike Tyson and Vitali Klitschko

Vitali Klitschko won in the first round matchup against Evander Holyfield 3-0
Vitali Klitschko loss in the second round matchup against George Foreman 3-1
Mike Tyson defeated Gene Tunney in the first round matchup 2-0
Mike Tyson loss in the second round matchup against Sonny Liston 5-1

Mike Tyson      Vitali Klitschko

 

        Mike Tyson 5’11”, 220                             Vitali Klitschko  6’7”, 245

                    1988-1990                                                 2004-2005   

 

Fight Advantages:

Hand Speed- Tyson, Boxing Ability-Vitali, KO Power-Tyson, Size-Vitali, Defense-Vitali, Endurance-No Advantage, Adaptability-Vitali, Foot Speed-Tyson, Strength-No Advantage, Jab- Vitali, Cuts-Tyson, Reach-Vitali 79” to 71”, Body Attack-Tyson:

Total: 6-5-2 Vitali Klitschko

 

Jim Carney-Author and Boxing Expert: Vitali Klitschko vs. Mike Tyson

Even though Tyson fought with a much better defense in the early part of his career and most likely would have been a much grittier fighter when Cus 'D' amato, Jimmy Jacobs and Kevin Rooney were  still around, I still would go for Vitali as the winner.  In his one fight at his own level, Vitali showed grit and talent against the great Lennox Lewis. The first few rounds could be a good scrap, but even the younger Tyson gets discouraged by the constant pounding by the jab and follow-up punches from the gigantic, iron-jawed and evasive Ukranian. The result: a late round kayo by Vitali

 

Moontan-Boxing Expert Heavyweightaction.com

Two great fighters doing battle. Of course the Tyson of the 1980s is the one Vitali would be facing in the fight. Vitali was smart enough to limit Tyson’s ability to get close and keep him at a distance. Fighting from long range Vitali would control the fight but he would take some real punishment. Vitali holds Tyson and is deducted for holding but that is what he has to do to win the fight. Tyson takes many jabs and by the 15th round both fighters are exhausted. Vitali granite chin keeps him a float as he wins a 15 round decision.

By Joss Gooseman:

The blueprint
Derek Chisora just showed the world how Vitali Klitschko could be beaten. Problem was, Chisora didn’t have the proper tools to do the job. He is not a devastating puncher, and he couldn’t get his timing on his shots. But one thing he showed is that he managed to get into effective firing range, only he didn’t fire any shot when there were openings, and believe me, there were a lot. He said it himself in the interview after the fight – “When I got inside, though, I wasn’t working.” But he showed that his upper body movement unexpectedly presented Vitali Klitschko with difficulties. He made Klitschko miss most of his shots. Right hooks on the inside in particular. They just hit the air over Chisora’s head.


Viltali Klitschko never, in his whole career faced the likes of a Smokin’ Joe, or an Iron Mike, and when faced with a poor version in Dereck Chisora, he was faced with difficulties. He never had that swollen red area on his left side. He missed a lot of his shots when he’s known as a surgically precise puncher. It can be said a trillion times, but the meaning and significance of the phrase will never diminish, “styles makes fights” will always hold true.

Now, Tyson’s body movements are significantly quicker than those of Chisora’s, making him harder to hit, hence more effective. A lower Mike Tyson, bobbing and weaving, being smaller, hence, being harder target to hit, getting into range, firing those right hooks to the body, will eventually hurt Vitali. Mike Tyson in his full prime before Cus D’Amato’s death, the sliding, bobbing, weaving, peek-a-boo Mike Tyson, I see Iron Mike prevailing over Dr. Ironfist. I can even say that a prime Smokin’ Joe Frazier would have had a more than decent chance of beating Vitali Klitschko.

Saddo Boxing Forum:

61-26 in favor of Tyson

 

Eastside Boxing Forum:

67-63 in favor of Vitali

 

Eastside Boxing Forum:

70-60 in favor of Tyson

 

Experts Predicted Outcome: Final Tally 3-3 tie (Vitali advances)

Carney Boxing Expert          Vitali Klitschko 13-KO

Moontan Boxing Expert      Vitali Klitschko 15-D

Joss Gooseman                     Mike Tyson

Saddo Boxing Forum:          Mike Tyson 61-26

Eastside Boxing Forum:       Vitali Klitschko 67-63

Eastside Boxing Forum:       Mike Tyson 70-60

 

Tie breaker is Moontan and Carney both picking Vitali

Vitali Klitschko advances to the 5th place finals against Joe Louis

 

You decide who wins: Tyson or Klitschko

 


5th PLACE FINALS: Vitali Klitschko vs. Joe Louis

HOW THEY GOT THIS FAR:
VITALI BEAT EVANDER HOLYFIELD 3-0, LOSS TO GEORGE FOREMAN 3-1, DEFEATED TYSON 3-3.
JOE LOUIS BEAT JACK DEMPSEY 2-0-1, LOSS TO MUHAMMAD ALI 4-1,
DEFEATED JOE FRAZIER 2-1.

      

          VITALI KLITSCHKO 6’7”, 245                                JOE LOUIS 6’1”, 190

                      2004-2005                                                                  1937-1949

FIGHT ADVANTAGES:

HAND SPEED- LOUIS, BOXING ABILITY-NO ADVANTAGE, KO POWER-LOUIS, CHIN-VITALI, DEFENSE-VITALI, ENDURANCE-NO ADVANTAGE, ADAPTABILITY-VITALI, FOOT SPEED-NO ADVANTAGE, STRENGTH-VITALI, JAB- LOUIS, CUTS- NO ADVANTAGE, REACH-LOUIS(77”),            VITALI(79”), BODY ATTACK-NO ADVANTAGE.


TOTAL: VITALI KLITSCHKO 5-3-5

JIM CARNEY-AUTHOR AND BOXING EXPERT:

Vitali’s size and own solid punch enables him to put up a battle. Joe probably has some edge in skill and a slight advantage in punch. He definitely has the advantage in tough experience. Again, he does well against big guys and wins.

 

MOONTAN- HEAVYWEIGHT ACTION BOXING EXPERT:

The size and weight difference has to be taken into consideration, 6 inches and 55 pounds. That is a lot to make up even for the legendary Joe Louis. Yes Louis defeated several big men but he never faced a fighter with the combination of size, speed, chin and boxing ability he would be looking at in facing Vitali. Vitali would keep his distance jabbing and moving with his frustrating style that only he could appreciate. I think Louis would hit Vitali hard but Klitschko has one of the best chins in the history of the heavyweight division. And when it comes to power Vitali has the highest knockout rate in the history of the division. Higher than Liston, Marciano, Foreman or Joe Louis. Yes Vitali looks clumsy and awkward but he was tough to beat. I’ve got Klitschko in 12 rounds with a knockout.

BOXING NEWS: JOHN F. MCKENNA

As good as Joe Louis was it is doubtful if they could have competed on an equal level with Vitali Klitschko. While there were other huge fighters in the past, they did not have the skills of Klitschko. It must also be kept in mind that many of the opponents of the former greats were in the 190 pound range and would not even be considered viable opponents for Vitali today.

 

G. GRAVESON - - BOXING EXPERT

http://sgraveson.hubpages.com/hub/Vitali-Klitschko-v-10-of-the-best

Louis may well be the greatest heavyweight champion in the history of the sport, a 6’2’’ power punching machine who could either box you or blow you out depending on how he felt on the day. He carried his power through a fight, and was explosive with his shots, every punch in a combination hurt and could stop a fighter. Louis cleaned out his division like no other fighter did, and he didn’t stop at any limits to prove he was the best, size wasn’t an issue for a man who at 200 was regularly outweighed. Louis would stop Abe Simon twice (254 and 255), Buddy Bear (250 and 237 when Louis beat him by DQ) and Carnera (260) showing he could handle big men with easy.

Against Klitschko however he’d have to start as the under-dog, yes Louis was a supreme fighting machine but giving away weight to someone like Carnera is very different to facing someone like Vitali who uses his size well and is skilled. Louis, although explosive was also open and lacked the defence of some other boxers, in fact his best defence was probably the fear he put into opponents. Against Vitali he’s unlikely to scare a fighter who has shown he can take a punch and land his own. This bout would be all wrong for Louis, who was too small and would be giving away too much reach. The fight would be thrilling though eventually Louis would be stopped very late in a great fight.

 

Boxing Scene Forum:

Vitali 139 Louis 84

 

Eastside Boxing Forum:

Louis 157 Vitali 97

 

Experts Predicted Outcome: Final Tally 4-2 in favor of Vitali Klitschko

Carney, Author and Boxing Expert                   Joe Louis

Moontan, Heavyweight Action Expert             Vitali Klitschko 12-KO

Eastside Boxing Forum                                        Joe Louis

Boxing Scene Forum                                           Vitali Klitschko

John F. McKenna, Boxing News                         Vitali Klitschko

S. Graveson, Boxing Expert                                Vitali Klitschko KO Late

 

Vitali Klitschko takes 5th place behind Muhammad Ali, Sonny Liston, George Foreman and Lennox Lewis.

 

You decide who wins: Klitschko or Louis.

 


7TH PLACE FIGHT BETWEEN JOE FRAZIER AND MIKE TYSON


HOW THEY GOT HERE:

JOE FRAZIER:      BEAT JACK JOHNSON 2-1 IN THE FIRST ROUND

                                LOST TO LENNOX LEWIS 3-3 TIE BREAKER IN THE QUARTERFINALS

                                LOST TO JOE LOUIS 2-1 IN THE 5TH PLACE SEMI-FINALS

MIKE TYSON:     BEAT GENE TUNNEY 2-0 IN THE FIRST ROUND

                                LOST TO SONNY LISTON 5-1 IN THE QUARTERFINALS

                                LOST TO VITALI KLITSCHKO 3-3 TIE BREAKER IN THE 5TH PLACE SEMI-FINALS

 

Description: http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02049/joe-frazier_2049180c.jpgDescription: https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSCU6oIwN6QW_1VMeaLx60IokV6aiWkooh8DiqUBw0KeKd11Gdy

 Joe Frazier 5’11”,205   1970-1973                                    Mike Tyson 5’10”, 220    1988-1990

Fight Advantages:

Hand Speed-Tyson, Boxing Ability-Tyson, KO Power-Tyson, Size-Tyson, Defense-Frazier, Endurance-Frazier, Adaptability-No Advantage, Foot Speed-No Advantage, Strength-Tyson, Jab-Tyson, Cuts-No Advantage, Reach- Frazier(73” to 71”), Body Attack-Frazier:

Total: Tyson 6-4-3

 

By Boxing Expert, Jim Carney

The ferocious Tyson floors Joe twice in the first round. Joe’s grit gets him through and he takes Mike’s heart for a kayo between round six and eleven. An exciting slugfest while it last.

 

Heavyweight Action Boxing Expert Moontan:

What a great matchup for the boxing fan. Frazier representing the boxing generation of the 1960s and 70s while Tyson has his following from the 1980s and 90s. Neither fighter were great boxers and both liked to come forward so this fight is not destine to last long. Frazier was much harder to hit although Tyson in his prime was very difficult to hit. Tyson emulated Frazier during his early years in the ring with his low head movement. Tyson was the stronger fighter with more devastating punches and ultimately prove too much for “Smokin”, Joe.  Tyson within five rounds by knockout.

 

By Joe Torcello The Boxing Magazine 2012

http://theboxingmagazine.com/2012/02/06/joe-frazier-vs-the-best-of-the-80s-90s-2000s/

 

Mike Tyson presents a different kind of challenger for Frazier. Tyson was an explosive combination puncher and a very fast starter. It’s not difficult envisioning a double-uppercut dropping Frazier multiple times and forcing an early rounds stoppage. Oscar Bonavena, a straight-ahead slugger, had Frazier down twice in the 2nd round during their first meeting in 1966. Frazier rose both times and went on to win a close majority decision over ten rounds. Bonavena was nowhere near the finisher Tyson was, however.

 

 In Frazier’s favor, Joe got stronger as a fight progressed. If Frazier made it past the first three rounds, it’s not too difficult seeing him dig in and start landing his explosive hooks to the body against Tyson. Once that happened, you have a totally different fight on your hands. Make no mistake about it, Frazier could hurt anyone. George Foreman once said in an interview that he “felt the wind” from a Frazier hook that missed him by a few inches and said to himself, “I have to get him out of here before I really get hurt!”

 

 This is a hard fight to pick, but if pressed… I would probably go with Tyson’s blend of speed and power ending matters in the early rounds.

 

Experts Predicted Outcome: Tyson defeats Frazier 2-1(7th place)

Author and Boxing Experts Jim Carney   Frazier 6-KO

Moontan Heavyweightaction.com           Tyson 5-KO

Joe Torcello The Boxing Magazine            Tyson early rounds

 

You decide who wins it all: Frazier or Tyson

 


THE FINALS: CHAMPIONSHIP – LISTON VS. ALI

               

        SONNY LISTON         VS.                     MUHAMMAD ALI

            1962-1964                               1964-1970, 1974-1978, 1978

 

HOW THEY ADVANCED TO THE FINALS:

LISTON DEFEATED ROCKY MARCIANO IN THE FIRST ROUND MATCHUP 2-0

LISTON DEFEATED MIKE TYSON IN THE QUARTERFINALS 5-1

LISTON DEFEATED GEORGE FOREMAN IN THE SEMI-FINALS 5-0

Total 12-1 92%

ALI DEFEATED RIDDICK BOWE IN THE FIRST ROUND MATCHUP 3-0

ALI DEFEATED JOE LOUIS IN THE QUARTERFINALS 4-1

ALI DEFEATED LENNOX LEWIS IN THE SEMI-FINALS 6-2

Total 13-3 81%

 

Fight Advantages:

Hand Speed-Ali, Boxing Ability-Ali, KO Power-Liston, Chin-Ali, Size-Liston, Defense-Ali, Endurance-Ali, Adaptability-Ali, Foot Speed-Ali, Strength-Liston, Jab-Liston, Cuts-No Advantage, Reach-Liston 84”, Ali 78”, Body Attack-Liston:

Total: 7-6 for Ali

 

Jim Carney, Author and Boxing Expert:

When this same matchup came out as the final bout in my heavyweight tournament that was published several years ago in the Cleveland Tab, my colleague Mansfield Frazier expressed the thought that it was somewhat of a letdown having a final between two men who had fought already.

Perhaps he was right, Liston was out of shape, overconfident and possibly past his prime. And the shoulder injury that caused him to quit in his corner was almost certainly genuine.  The Liston of 1965 was definitely past his prime and whatever was going on, the referee should not have called it a kayo when Ali refused to go to a neutral corner.

The Liston of 1958-63 was a bruiser's bruiser. If the tournament contained only sluggers, I'd pick him as the second most likely (after JIm Jeffries) to come out on top. Sonny appeared to be courageous, indestructible and unstoppable in slugger-to-slugger confrontations. But his bouts with Eddie Machen and Bert Whitehurst along with Ali and frustration in sparring with the tall, awkward Ernie Terrell indicate that he could become frustrated.

But still, this time Ali is facing a prime and hungry Liston. Muhammad is staggered a number of times and perhaps floored  once. Most of the rounds are competitive. But Ali stays a step or two ahead, wins most of them and takes a hard fought but decisive and definitely unanimous decision.

Moontan, boxing expert at Heavyweightaction.com

A very interesting matchup for the finals, it’s a rematch of their 1964 heavyweight title fight. Neither fighter was really challenged coming through the tournament which is also surprising. What would be different this time as compared to their first match-up between the two greats”. First off I think a younger Liston would have been a much better opponent for Ali this time around and Liston would not be the overwhelming favorite as in the first fight. I see Liston showing much more respect for Ali throughout the fighting and pacing himself much better and also he would be much more prepared both physically and mentally for this fight. Whether he would let Ali get inside his head in this fight like he did the first time remains to be seen. I see a truly a great fight with Ali hitting the canvas and Ali winning a very close decision because of his speed and athletic ability. Liston stays upright the entire fight but his face shows the ware of Ali’s punches.

 

Experts Predicted Outcome: Ali is the winner in the Finals 2-0

Jim Carney author           Ali 15-D

Moontan, expert             Ali 15-D

 

 

You decide who wins it all: Ali or Liston


CONCLUSIONS

Following the first round “Dream Match-ups” we asked the two judges, Jim Carney and Moontan, who ruled on every fight to rank their picks in the order in which they felt the best about and the ones they were least confident about.

Here’s Jim Carney’s picks (from most confident to least)

  1. Frazier over Jack Johnson (very confident about this pick)
  2. Ali over Bowe
  3. Lennox Lewis over Wladimir Klitschko
  4. Vital Klitschko over Evander Holyfield
  5. Mike Tyson over Gene Tunney
  6. Sonny Liston over Rocky Marciano
  7. Dempsey over Joe Louis
  8. George Foreman over Larry Holmes (least confident about this pick)

Moontan’s picks (from most confident to least)

  1. Mike Tyson over Gene Tunney (very confident of pick)
  2. Sonny Liston over Rocky Marciano
  3. Joe Frazier over Jack Johnson
  4. Muhammad Ali over Riddick Bowe
  5. Vitali Klitschko over Evander Holyfield
  6. Joe Louis over Jack Dempsey
  7. Larry Holmes over George Foreman
  8. Wladimir Klitschko over Lennox Lewis(least confident about this pick)

Interesting to look at the picks because both judges did not feel that strong about their picks in the Foreman-Holmes fight, each selecting different fighters. Moontan did not feel that strong about his pick of Wladimir over Lewis and interesting enough Carney went opposite on that pick as well. The only fight that was rated in the top half by both judges was the Frazier over Jack Johnson fight.


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